Shouldn't every ODS clone have a built in Dumbleator?

[talbany]

The 1 u rack version really only makes sense if the rest of your FX are rack mounted this day and age the high end stuff like Eventide H9- Strymon-etc are all pedal format so no need for racks anymore.

Marcus
Checking out the H9 appears not to have a line level input?..So I am confused? are you talking about using the H9 in the loop or in the front of the amp?..If you run it in the front don't you run into problems with having too wet a mix when you switch to the OD side due to the added gain or are you just hanging on the clean side and use the floor for everything like how Robben runs his rig now.
BTW.I can never get low-level inputs on floor boxes to sound good in my loop because the signal gets too squashed at the front end of the pedal and have to jack the signal up after it.(series loop)
I know in the studio at really low vol levels I could maybe make that work but I can never seem to get it to sound or feel good at loud gig volumes I sometimes play.
Not trying to be a pain.Just wondering how you run it,or if I am missing something!

Tony

Tony,

My H9 is on my main board so it's on an FX loop chain with other time/modulation FX that goes into the Dumbleator.

If it's grab and go I use a Strymon flint, TC nova delay in front of the amp.


IMG_20171120_104915.jpg

IMG_20171121_101056.jpg

IMG_20171120_104854.jpg


Marcus

Marcus
Very cool and thanks for the reply and the impressive pics of your set up
Here is what I have found running these amps live over 10 years now.
In general it's usually best to keep both the loop and the effects your running in the loop back by the amp to keep all the cables as short as possible, otherwise, you will kill your highs.
Also in order to preserve maximum signal strength and purity, coming out of the amps preamp, the Dumbleator works best when kept at line levels.This also can help with the noise floor coming from recovery amp in the D-Lator.
I am usually more concerned with the headroom in the preamps of my effects than I am with algorithms or clock speeds because I want to pump as much signal into my effects from the Lator as possible and leave as little recovery as possible.(stomp boxes usually have poor headroom) I am just a simple reverb /chorus /short delay set and forget player.
If I run my time based effects into the front end of the amp, my Overdrive channel becomes useless! in a live setting

BTW.Not trying to say you get a bad tone or am telling you how to run your rig for the sound you are chasing in the studio for whatever levels you run or situations your in
Just sharing with you my advice and what has worked best for someone who lives in the rabbit hole and over many years of playing these amps live

Take it or leave it
All the best!

Tony

[norburybrook]

Tony,

I'm still learning about these wonderful amps so I appreciate your input as always. The Jazz OD thing was a really cool revelation


I use buffers on that pedal board. I have two Pete Cornish Buffers, one on the guitar 'out' to the front of the amp after front of amp FX and and one on the 'send' to the Dumbleator and that helps a lot with cable high end loss along with the bright switches. They're underneath inside a casing that has all the ins/outs along side the Voodoo labs power supply.I did an A/B test and the buffers made a huge difference , there's basically no tone loss with the buffers, or very little using that board now.

On that session the amp was a long way from me in a booth, so I had really long cables all round, in fact I had to use connectors to joint two cables together for the Loop. The buffers earnt their money that day


I agree about the OD and FX in front it's quite a balancing act. I'm not a heavy OD player so it's not a big issue for me at the moment, grab and go things tend to be Jazz/soul things.


M

[martin manning]

Well crap...however I see they sell a power supply too. It seems like this would be a quick and cheap way to build an external dumbleator.

https://www.tube-town.net/ttstore/Kits/ ... -Converter

Sorry if this has been covered already

D’lator supply node voltages are 260V and 360V, whereas this single output supply delivers just 220V.

[burntfingers]

Thanks...that’s good info. What would the lower voltages do to the tone?

[talbany]

Tony,

I'm still learning about these wonderful amps so I appreciate your input as always. The Jazz OD thing was a really cool revelation


I use buffers on that pedal board. I have two Pete Cornish Buffers, one on the guitar 'out' to the front of the amp after front of amp FX and and one on the 'send' to the Dumbleator and that helps a lot with cable high end loss along with the bright switches. They're underneath inside a casing that has all the ins/outs along side the Voodoo labs power supply.I did an A/B test and the buffers made a huge difference , there's basically no tone loss with the buffers, or very little using that board now.

On that session the amp was a long way from me in a booth, so I had really long cables all round, in fact I had to use connectors to joint two cables together for the Loop. The buffers earnt their money that day


I agree about the OD and FX in front it's quite a balancing act. I'm not a heavy OD player so it's not a big issue for me at the moment, grab and go things tend to be Jazz/soul things.


M

Marcus.
You probably have a few more buffers in some of those pedals as well
Absolutely the buffers can help with the long runs no doubt about it!..It's kind of funny really when you think about it we spend all this time energy and money building a tube amp because we want that tube richness and then what do we do to the signal right before it hits the output section? we run it through another preamp driven by a transistor
IMO I think a big part of Robbens (Most famous ODS) sounds were a combination of 2 things that no one here ever seems to discuss or bring up are!
He ran his guitar (sometimes with his vol tone pots disconnected) straight into the amp careful not to alter any impedance's (which some stomp boxes can do even in the off position!)
The other is the sound of the preamp inside the 2290. Everyone seems to think its just the Dumbleator when the 2290 also shapes the tone IMO in a big way

Anyway it's just what I think

I totally agree! The ODS makes for a great clean platform for pedals and when I get lazy (which is most of the time) I'll throw down the board and hang on the clean side.My 2 fave amps for this are Bluesmaster and my 2nd gen with the #13 early skyliner stack
However the low plate Music Man is moving up fast.

BTW..Out of all the ODS amps I've built throughout the years I get the best RF sound out of yes the low plate Music Man.Which leads me to wonder now if 102 was ever converted to a low plate design
102 still has it's preamp goop'd AFAIK

Have you tried your new plate resistors yet

Tony

[norburybrook]

Tony,

I'm still learning about these wonderful amps so I appreciate your input as always. The Jazz OD thing was a really cool revelation


I use buffers on that pedal board. I have two Pete Cornish Buffers, one on the guitar 'out' to the front of the amp after front of amp FX and and one on the 'send' to the Dumbleator and that helps a lot with cable high end loss along with the bright switches. They're underneath inside a casing that has all the ins/outs along side the Voodoo labs power supply.I did an A/B test and the buffers made a huge difference , there's basically no tone loss with the buffers, or very little using that board now.

On that session the amp was a long way from me in a booth, so I had really long cables all round, in fact I had to use connectors to joint two cables together for the Loop. The buffers earnt their money that day


I agree about the OD and FX in front it's quite a balancing act. I'm not a heavy OD player so it's not a big issue for me at the moment, grab and go things tend to be Jazz/soul things.


M

Marcus.
You probably have a few more buffers in some of those pedals as well
Absolutely the buffers can help with the long runs no doubt about it!..It's kind of funny really when you think about it we spend all this time energy and money building a tube amp because we want that tube richness and then what do we do to the signal right before it hits the output section? we run it through another preamp driven by a transistor
IMO I think a big part of Robbens (Most famous ODS) sounds were a combination of 2 things that no one here ever seems to discuss or bring up are!
He ran his guitar (sometimes with his vol tone pots disconnected) straight into the amp careful not to alter any impedance's (which some stomp boxes can do even in the off position!)
The other is the sound of the preamp inside the 2290. Everyone seems to think its just the Dumbleator when the 2290 also shapes the tone IMO in a big way

Anyway it's just what I think

I totally agree! The ODS makes for a great clean platform for pedals and when I get lazy (which is most of the time) I'll throw down the board and hang on the clean side.My 2 fave amps for this are Bluesmaster and my 2nd gen with the #13 early skyliner stack
However the low plate Music Man is moving up fast.

BTW..Out of all the ODS amps I've built throughout the years I get the best RF sound out of yes the low plate Music Man.Which leads me to wonder now if 102 was ever converted to a high plate design
102 still has it's preamp goop'd AFAIK

Have you tried your new plate resistors yet

Tony

all the pedals are true bypass so the buffers have a noticable difference. I have a 2290 sat here looking at me.....it's sat on top of a Lexicon 300 doing the same thing....

Interesting that Robben doesn't use this anymore.

but....the most important part of your post


Which leads me to wonder now if 102 was ever converted to a high plate design
102 still has it's preamp goop'd AFAIK



Tony, I thought you were the main guy who has seen inside the amp or photos of the amp and reverse engineered it for us all.

do tell.....

the plate resistors are still en route, they're in the regular mail which I have a feeling still comes by boat!!! that or carrier pidgeons ....it's been a while now.


Marcus

[talbany]

Tony,

I'm still learning about these wonderful amps so I appreciate your input as always. The Jazz OD thing was a really cool revelation


I use buffers on that pedal board. I have two Pete Cornish Buffers, one on the guitar 'out' to the front of the amp after front of amp FX and and one on the 'send' to the Dumbleator and that helps a lot with cable high end loss along with the bright switches. They're underneath inside a casing that has all the ins/outs along side the Voodoo labs power supply.I did an A/B test and the buffers made a huge difference , there's basically no tone loss with the buffers, or very little using that board now.

On that session the amp was a long way from me in a booth, so I had really long cables all round, in fact I had to use connectors to joint two cables together for the Loop. The buffers earnt their money that day


I agree about the OD and FX in front it's quite a balancing act. I'm not a heavy OD player so it's not a big issue for me at the moment, grab and go things tend to be Jazz/soul things.


M

Marcus.
You probably have a few more buffers in some of those pedals as well
Absolutely the buffers can help with the long runs no doubt about it!..It's kind of funny really when you think about it we spend all this time energy and money building a tube amp because we want that tube richness and then what do we do to the signal right before it hits the output section? we run it through another preamp driven by a transistor
IMO I think a big part of Robbens (Most famous ODS) sounds were a combination of 2 things that no one here ever seems to discuss or bring up are!
He ran his guitar (sometimes with his vol tone pots disconnected) straight into the amp careful not to alter any impedance's (which some stomp boxes can do even in the off position!)
The other is the sound of the preamp inside the 2290. Everyone seems to think its just the Dumbleator when the 2290 also shapes the tone IMO in a big way

Anyway it's just what I think

I totally agree! The ODS makes for a great clean platform for pedals and when I get lazy (which is most of the time) I'll throw down the board and hang on the clean side.My 2 fave amps for this are Bluesmaster and my 2nd gen with the #13 early skyliner stack
However the low plate Music Man is moving up fast.

BTW..Out of all the ODS amps I've built throughout the years I get the best RF sound out of yes the low plate Music Man.Which leads me to wonder now if 102 was ever converted to a high plate design
102 still has it's preamp goop'd AFAIK

Have you tried your new plate resistors yet

Tony

all the pedals are true bypass so the buffers have a noticable difference. I have a 2290 sat here looking at me.....it's sat on top of a Lexicon 300 doing the same thing....

Interesting that Robben doesn't use this anymore.

but....the most important part of your post


Which leads me to wonder now if 102 was ever converted to a high plate design
102 still has it's preamp goop'd AFAIK



Tony, I thought you were the main guy who has seen inside the amp or photos of the amp and reverse engineered it for us all.

do tell.....

the plate resistors are still en route, they're in the regular mail which I have a feeling still comes by boat!!! that or carrier pidgeons ....it's been a while now.


Marcus

M
NO!.I never said I was actually inside 102 with a meter
I was merely the conduit of info supplied to me by either those that posted info here or from those that I knew that were inside 102 that wanted to remain anonymous for obvious reasons and that they trusted me with this info!. The actual info obtained to determine whether the amp was a high plate or a low plate you will find in this thread as it was posted publicly here

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 99#p132099

I have no reason to believe Brandon was not telling the truth with regard to the plate loads on 102 he may very well be!
My point was simply that now that I have built both a high plate (102 style) and now a low plate Skyline MM amp, I hear more similarities in both sound and operating points and pot settings, and other reasons (confidential) and the goop that now leaves me to have possible doubts 102 could still be a high plate ( Remember Robben is a Fender guy) and 102 was originally a low plate. Right now it is just my theory.

As far as a pic of 102 goes If you go over to the 102 layout thread there is one right there : (https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 3&start=15) You can see the pic of the inside of the amp.

Robben's Dumble.jpg

[norburybrook]

[/quote]
My point was simply that now that I have built both a high plate (102 style) and now a low plate Skyline MM amp, I hear more similarities in both sound and operating points and pot settings, and other reasons (confidential) and the goop that now leaves me to have possible doubts 102 could still be a high plate ( Remember Robben is a Fender guy) and 102 was originally a low plate. Right now it is just my theory.

[/quote]

Tony, I had exactly the same thought when you mentioned this.

So if it was low plate, would it still be a skyliner EQ? can that be certain from the gut shots.

Might be an intersting experiment to drop a #102 down to low plate values with the skyliner EQ. I actually really like my #102 as it is so I'm not changing it, it just kind of works for me.

interesting though.


M

edit: Just found a low plate classic layout for the #102 in my build folder. The question is skyliner or Classic EQ though for the RF amp.

[talbany]

Marcus
Cool we are building a consensus. I am pretty sure it's a Skyliner

BTW.High plate Skylines are really wonderful amps as well. It does things my low plate cannot do.IMO It's tough to beat a Les Paul or 335 through a high plate Skyline in Overdrive breathing fire

Tony

[aflynt]

FWIW, I had my 102 Clone running with low plates for a while. I was using the amp to experiment with the different topologies and learn how they affected the sound. First I converted the 102 to lowplate (retaining everything else from the schematic), then I turned it into a lowplate classic, then I tweaked various other things, HF Taper, bypass caps, etc... In the end, ironically, I decided that I liked the 102 in lowplate skyliner configuration best. I have two other amp builds that I use for gigging that I put in that configuration as well.

I agree with Tony about the fx as too. I just run a couple Boss 500 series pedals on top of my amp and switch everything via a midi controller (including amp channels/boost). I like the loop running hot and you lose a lot of highs even with the Dumbleator buffer with longer cables. I tried a Klon style buffer running at 24v (for headroom) before the send and it brought back the highs, but didn't sound as good. Maybe the Cornish would be better? Wonder how tough it would be to replicate the 2290 preamp?

-Aaron

[norburybrook]

FWIW, I had my 102 Clone running with low plates for a while. I was using the amp to experiment with the different topologies and learn how they affected the sound. First I converted the 102 to lowplate (retaining everything else from the schematic), then I turned it into a lowplate classic, then I tweaked various other things, HF Taper, bypass caps, etc... In the end, ironically, I decided that I liked the 102 in lowplate skyliner configuration best. I have two other amp builds that I use for gigging that I put in that configuration as well.

I agree with Tony about the fx as too. I just run a couple Boss 500 series pedals on top of my amp and switch everything via a midi controller (including amp channels/boost). I like the loop running hot and you lose a lot of highs even with the Dumbleator buffer with longer cables. I tried a Klon style buffer running at 24v (for headroom) before the send and it brought back the highs, but didn't sound as good. Maybe the Cornish would be better? Wonder how tough it would be to replicate the 2290 preamp?

-Aaron

Interesting stuff. I do believe we are building a consensus here.

I remember building a #124 low plate classic and not liking it however it was early days so I wasn't really tuned in to things. I did experiment with various options but ended up scrapping everything and making a #102.

I have some NOS dale's coming form Charlie which are low plate, so I could.

1; replace the new dales in my second gen as an A-B
2: Convert the #102 to a low plate skyliner

I need to take a good look and see what's actually needed to change the #102 to full low plate first.

interesting stuff.


M

[aflynt]

I need to take a good look and see what's actually needed to change the #102 to full low plate first.

IIRC it's just the 8 resistors, V1&V2 plates and cathodes.

Thread where I talk about converting 102 to lowplate (with clips):

https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 45#p326945

-Aaron

[talbany]

I'll just add a couple things here real quick!
Dumble used different value bypass caps on many of the early Low Plate Skylines on V1. Some had 10uF others had 25uF. Also, remember 124 has a 250k Level and 350K OD trimmer. These changes will add more low end and IMO is the main reason why he dropped back to 10uF's on that amp. My Tan Ultrasound amp has 25uF on V1A and B has a 100k OD trimmer and 100K Level controls and 33k grid stopper on V1A and is pretty well balanced between clean and OD for the 34L's.

Low plate Skyliners are a challenge to get right.They can be pretty picky as far as resistor/Cap brands or types your using. This design IMO is the brightest most articulate ones of the bunch so any harshness or hair picked up along the way in V1 can quickly translate to an overly aggressive, bright or even buzzy sounding OD channel(Especially with single coils) I would try to steer clear of Metal films (other than the plates) cheap ceramic or 716 O-Drop caps. Use the NFB loop on V1B, high-value snubbers on V2 and pay close attention to the details ie,balanced voltages, lead-dress,coax type, cap orientation and soldering pin connections (Circuit Constants ) You should be good!

BTW.Deep switches are IMO the way to go in these amps.Flip the switch dime the controls and wala! instant Blackface Fender

Good Luck

Tony

[norburybrook]

thanks Guys,

Interesting stuff. The tweaker in me is intrigued by this, however I'm reluctant to change my #102 as it's the amp I always go back to, just seems to suit me and my telecasters.


I have the #40 low plate classic which is more along the fender lines and I'm going to put the NOS dales in there I think and mess around with that amp. I could possibly put that into a head only cab so I can use different speaker combinations, I do like the look of that combo though. It's heavy!!…..argh!! too much choice.


The resistors still haven't arrived and I'm about to go on tour for two months in 10 days so I've a feeling nothing will happen for me on this front until December/Jan


M

[67plexi]

My #102 build was not a walk in the park first I used 1971 Fender Twin iron I tried high plate mid plate low plate went back to high plate then I scored a set of Magic Parts
NOS transformer set that turned it into a harmonic machine B+1 488v I used this video as as sound reference https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7OINxfKZW0
With the Fender set of transformers was 90% it was that 10% that was the killer to obtain I hate to admit I sourced different resistors that Dumble used from around the world
two years on the work bench. End of the line what I learned on voltages and what parts to use priceless.

Next my #183 build is just fantastic I used Jason's power transformer a 1968 Marshall plexi output transformer to my ears sounds better than the real one.

Next I built a 50 watt version I went mid plate 135k 2k2 on V-1 high plate V-2 it has the best over drive channel of all my ODS amps JTM45 PT 1968 JMP50 OPT
It's ugly but has the sound and no need for a Dumbelator. B+1 471V I call it the Green Hornet Combo with a EVM-12S

EL34 Mid Plate Skyliner 50 Watt 001.JPG

EL34 Mid Plate Skyliner 50 Watt 002.JPG

Now I'm getting old the amps I play are 20 pounds on stage I went through SSS hell I hate them 100watt 120watt 150watt spent thousands three years of my life
That put me in the direction of the EF86 for V-1 500k volume and a 7 position rotary switch for treble Radio Spare clone transformers 18 watt EF86 EL84 pair
EZ81 12AX7 PI 25 watt green back speaker I just put all NOS Mullard tubes in it. I call it Vox AC15 meets SSS I use my peddle board for overdrive Laney TI boost
Way Huge Red Llama and the Klon KTR The amp looks like a Marshall but it's not. I have played it every day for 3 years now

Thank you all for the information, Steve.