Steel String Singer question

[talbany]

BTW. Here is the hand drawn schematic of 002. There are a few typos. This is the one I built and is the same as the Sebago (Texas Flood amp) It uses a parasitic supply for the driver.
https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=17827

SSS_002_revision_7_174.pdf
Tony

Thanks Tony! Are the typos that you are referring to only in the hand drawn schematic or are there typos also in the pdf?

Thats right! However I am not positive all the typos that were changed in the PDF are 100% accurate. It' s been a while ago!. It certainly can be used as a legit starting point.

I didn't put any snubbers on the driver. They are on the plate load resistors of the preamp stages. I had my wife cut them out though. The preamp is basically the reverb channel of an AB763. It doesn't have step filters.

Gottcha!. Yeah snubbers on the preamp tubes would be like throwing bricks in the Grand Canyon. You could always rig up some kind of RC network (.001/500k pot) with a small trimmer just before the PI and adjust to taste.

Tony

[talbany]

AFAIK Here is the chronology of the Singer
The first 4 are 100W, so Henry Kaiser has 1 3 4
David Lindley's was 002 later owned by John Mayer. The amp used to live in Japan (Which was where the hand drawn schematic was made during a repair) no idea who was the original owner- maybe Christoper Cross or Randy California?.Here is a good clip of John playing 002
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLMnWxw1Qpg
5 is the one EJ ordered. Story goes EJ sold the amp after a power supply issue. The amp was later repaired but according to Eric was never the same after the repair so he sold it to someone who later sold it to Santana. The amp now resides in a hardwood maple head cab.
SRV's 1st Silverface amp was #7 . He later picked up a Blackface one (ser# unknown)both are 150W 6550 w/CF Driver.AFAIK the amp went back to Dumble for a repair. When Stevie got the repair bill some kind of dispute broke out over the cost for the repair refused to pay the bill and Dumble kept the amp.
Other ones unknown include Larry Carltons (Renegade Gentleman) SSS
Kirk Hammett's Blackface SSS.
Colin James also owned one at one time.No info exists on this amp so far.

Like jfs3222 Describes
The Ceriatone SSS is a clone of a 2 Rock Sterling which is a clone of Henery Keisers #004 AFAIK the JM Wonderland is just John's tweaks(stripped down version) of the Sterling to his liking. More than likely so they could market it as his Signature amp without being a direct clone. Amp companies do this kind of stuff all the time.
Here is the Sterling. BTW.When this amp first hit the market they were asking 10K for it.

TR1.jpg

Tony

[Charlie Wilson]

Tony, #5 went to Stephen Bruton after EJ as well as some other EJ items.
CW

[jfs322]

SSS #002 was not Lindley's. Lindley owned #003. Kaiser had #001 and #004. SSS #002 was originally built for Jackson Browne, then sold to a Japanese Collector.

See: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18597

And while maybe from a circuit standpoint #004 and the Wonderland are very similar, the ones I've played sounded dramatically different from one another. The Sterling/#004 is a very bright, snappy amp, whereas the Two-Rock Mayer Sig I played very quite dark. I'm no circuit expert, you guys would know much better than I would, but the Sterling and the Mayer Sig sound very different, even if the circuits are close.

[norburybrook]

SSS #002 was not Lindley's. Lindley owned #003. Kaiser had #001 and #004. SSS #002 was originally built for Jackson Browne, then sold to a Japanese Collector.

See: https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18597

And while maybe from a circuit standpoint #004 and the Wonderland are very similar, the ones I've played sounded dramatically different from one another. The Sterling/#004 is a very bright, snappy amp, whereas the Two-Rock Mayer Sig I played very quite dark. I'm no circuit expert, you guys would know much better than I would, but the Sterling and the Mayer Sig sound very different, even if the circuits are close.

My JM/Wonderland with a different voltage divider from the original 1M/68K and the NFB off, sounds like what I'd expect from the SSS #004. It's loud, really chimey and sounds better than the original and the latest JM sig we had to compare. Killer reverb too.

@tony, speaking of voltage dividers, is that what those two trim pots are on the Sterling? would make sense as I messed around with that for a while to get the sound I wanted.


great info on this thread , thanks all.

[talbany]

Tony, #5 went to Stephen Bruton after EJ as well as some other EJ items.
CW
SS #002 was not Lindley's. Lindley owned #003. Kaiser had #001 and #004. SSS #002 was originally built for Jackson Browne, then sold to a Japanese Collector.

Thanks Guy's I will update my database

And while maybe from a circuit standpoint #004 and the Wonderland are very similar, the ones I've played sounded dramatically different from one another. The Sterling/#004 is a very bright, snappy amp, whereas the Two-Rock Mayer Sig I played very quite dark. I'm no circuit expert, you guys would know much better than I would, but the Sterling and the Mayer Sig sound very different, even if the circuits are close.

I would think the brightness would be mostly due to the Sterling having the filters and the Wonderland not.

@tony, speaking of voltage dividers, is that what those two trim pots are on the Sterling? would make sense as I messed around with that for a while to get the sound I wanted.

Marcus. If you are referring to the black thing next to the CTS trimmer that is the inductor. I believe the CTS pot coming off one side of that would be used to help set the frequency response for the inductor.

My JM/Wonderland with a different voltage divider from the original 1M/68K and the NFB off, sounds like what I'd expect from the SSS #004. It's loud, really chimney and sounds better than the original and the latest JM sig we had to compare. Killer reverb too.

One thing you will find with these reverb circuits Dumble used (either plate or CF driven) were they are very sensitive to what kind of tanks you hook to them. I went through at least 5 different long delay tanks from different era's and different manufacturers and they all sounded noticeably different. Another words these amps are very sensitive to what type of tanks you use FWIW>
BTW.I agree the reverb Dumble used in these amps are great!. (and I don't even like spring reverb )
Tony

[norburybrook]

Tony,

I think I just got lucky, I used the iron from my donor Peavey including the USA acusonic tank and transformer. It's the best reverb I've ever heard on an amp [emoji3].

I've another acusonic USA Peavey tank here that I'm going to put in a grab and go Princeton reverb type amp I'm building next.

Really good info bring passed on here [emoji41]

M

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk

[wyatt]

I would think the brightness would be mostly due to the Sterling having the filters and the Wonderland not.

Nope.

The JM/Wonderland has noticeably different tone stack design than the 004/Sterling. The JM Sig was intentionally re-voiced to be be mellower and darker; imagine the sound of a 004 stuck in Jazz mode than modding it for even more lows. That's not an accurate breakdown electronically, but gives the basic idea of differences in tone. Just to note, Ceriatone uses a streamlined 004 preamp instead of the TR JM tonestack in their Wonderland clone.

[mojotom]

FWIW when I build a Wonderland style amp last year I tried a few things between the JM Sig and 004 and noticed two major circuit changes:

- 004 have quite lower resistors values on the power supply compare to the JM Sig. Something like 6.8K between PI and preamp stages then two parallels 1K PS lines to the preamp tubes.
JM Sig on the other hand have "classic" ODS like resistors values (22K to mixer stages then 2K2 to the first preamp tubes).

That's a huge dynamical change, often overlooked about those amps. Preamp voltage is way higher, more glassy, more instant attack and less compression.
Switching back and forth between those two PS style had more of an impact compare to a tonestack change IMHO.
Something to be found on old Fender amps (compare a Vibrolux BF to a Super Reverb for instance, the later got way lower PS resistors).

For me that's the main circuit change between those two amps that make them quite different if played side by side, almost like two completly differents amps.

- JM Sig got a cut control and that really dull the sound (in a good way), it felt like changing output stage feedback as well.
Putting a switch to remove that control from the signal really helps feeling the change (glassy could be the right word when cut control is out of the signal path).

For me those two differences really change the sound from JM Sig to 004, even more so than adding filters and/or changing the tonestack.

I preferred the JM Sig softer attack, especially pumping a Strat hard but I will came back to a proper SSS at some point.

[martin manning]

Studying the filters in the Ceriatone and the #002 (Japanese) schematic, I see two different approaches that get to a similar result. Since the Ceriatone has roots in #004, we can call that the #004 filter, and the one in the Japanese schematic is the #002. The difference is in the entrance, since the cap and resistor arrays are similar, and both have a pronounced treble boost (bass cut, really). The #004 is more "effective" in that the treble switch produces larger variation, and both are more of a sliding treble boost as opposed to a level change. In the #004 filter the inductor is really doing very little, as opposed to the #002, where it does absolutely nothing at all. It's not worth the trip IMO for a couple of dB up at 30 kHz. In the bypass position (full CCW on the treble switch), both the #004 and #002 filters have a pronounced treble cut, which will darken the sound significantly. In my adaptation of the #002 filter, the response is quite different, being a treble and bass level change which is symmetrical, centered around 400 Hz, and the steps are much more even as compared to the Dumble design. I'm calling it the Bikini Filter™ © for reasons that become obvious when you look at the Bode plot ;^)

[talbany]

I would think the brightness would be mostly due to the Sterling having the filters and the Wonderland not.

Nope.

The JM/Wonderland has noticeably different tone stack design than the 004/Sterling. The JM Sig was intentionally re-voiced to be be mellower and darker; imagine the sound of a 004 stuck in Jazz mode than modding it for even more lows. That's not an accurate breakdown electronically, but gives the basic idea of differences in tone. Just to note, Ceriatone uses a streamlined 004 preamp instead of the TR JM tonestack in their Wonderland clone.

Wyatt
I am confused:? Going by this layout, both the JM and the C-Tone/Sterling (004 )appear to have the same "Classic" Tone stacks, minus the R/J switch on the JM ( I consider that stack streamlined) 004, of course, has yes another tone stack (and recovery amp) after the classic by way of the filters! I personally consider these 2 designs apples and oranges in how they function and the range of frequencies they filter (004 being way more versatile) What is it about the JM stack that leads you to believe it's "mellower and darker".
BTW. Not trying to bust your balls just wondering?

Studying the filters in the Ceriatone and the #002 (Japanese) schematic, I see two different approaches that get to a similar result. Since the Ceriatone has roots in #004, we can call that the #004 filter, and the one in the Japanese schematic is the #002. The difference is in the entrance, since the cap and resistor arrays are similar, and both have a pronounced treble boost (bass cut, really). The #004 is more "effective" in that the switch produces larger variation, and both are more of a sliding boost as opposed to a level change. In the #004 filter the inductor is really doing very little, as opposed to the #002, where it does absolutely nothing at all. It's not worth the trip IMO for a couple of dB up at 30 kHz. In the bypass position (full CCW on the treble switch), both the #004 and #002 filters have a pronounced treble cut, which will darken the sound significantly. In my adaptation of the #002 filter, the response is quite different, being a treble and bass level change which is symmetrical, centered around 400 Hz, and the steps are much more even as compared to the Dumble design. I'm calling it the Bikini Filter™ © for reasons that become obvious when you look at the Bode plot ;^)
Top

YES!! I would recommend Martins filter array over Dumbles and believe it to have a more useable sweep for 6 string guitars. But then again I would recommend any tone circuit named BIKINI! (covers only the things that need to be covered0
BTW. Yes the inductor in 002 is about as useless as a plastic straw in California.
Tony

[norburybrook]

FWIW when I build a Wonderland style amp last year I tried a few things between the JM Sig and 004 and noticed two major circuit changes:

- 004 have quite lower resistors values on the power supply compare to the JM Sig. Something like 6.8K between PI and preamp stages then two parallels 1K PS lines to the preamp tubes.
JM Sig on the other hand have "classic" ODS like resistors values (22K to mixer stages then 2K2 to the first preamp tubes).

That's a huge dynamical change, often overlooked about those amps. Preamp voltage is way higher, more glassy, more instant attack and less compression.
Switching back and forth between those two PS style had more of an impact compare to a tonestack change IMHO.
Something to be found on old Fender amps (compare a Vibrolux BF to a Super Reverb for instance, the later got way lower PS resistors).

For me that's the main circuit change between those two amps that make them quite different if played side by side, almost like two completly differents amps.

- JM Sig got a cut control and that really dull the sound (in a good way), it felt like changing output stage feedback as well.
Putting a switch to remove that control from the signal really helps feeling the change (glassy could be the right word when cut control is out of the signal path).

For me those two differences really change the sound from JM Sig to 004, even more so than adding filters and/or changing the tonestack.

I preferred the JM Sig softer attack, especially pumping a Strat hard but I will came back to a proper SSS at some point.

@Mojotom,

Interesting you say that as I recently made a thread asking about why my JM sounded a lot better than the two rock original JM we had for comparison.

My thoughts were as I'd used Peavey iron I was running higher voltages ~500V Dc B+ which would translate to higher voltages all down the dropping string could that be a reason? it was generally thought that it wasn't however


M

[Roe]

the importance of preamp and PI voltages is also known from marshalsl, where the 100w amps have much higher voltages than the 50w amps. As a result, the former are cleaner and punchier

[wyatt]

Wyatt
I am confused:? Going by this layout, both the JM and the C-Tone/Sterling (004 )appear to have the same "Classic" Tone stacks, minus the R/J switch on the JM ( I consider that stack streamlined) 004, of course, has yes another tone stack (and recovery amp) after the classic by way of the filters! I personally consider these 2 designs apples and oranges in how they function and the range of frequencies they filter (004 being way more versatile) What is it about the JM stack that leads you to believe it's "mellower and darker".
BTW. Not trying to bust your balls just wondering?

I concede I was lazy and based my comments off the JM Proto schematic here on TAG, which is different than the Wonderland layout (there is a larger resistor to Ground off the Bass pot and a treble bleed cap), ... but I'm guessing the big difference between the Ceriatone JM/SSS and Wonderland in tone is that Bass control wiring, with the jumper across the lugs. The Ceriatone JM doesn't have the Rock/Jazz switch and filters.

[SixStringBender]

Thanks talbany for that treble cut suggestion to my AB763 type build. Just to note, the snubbers on the gain stages weren't to remedy the extended treble. Those were in my design before the amp was assembled. I put them on there to prevent any high frequency oscillation. Instead of using snubbers I'll use larger grid stoppers in the future.

As for the treble cut. I thought about doing it right before the PI, as you suggested, and I have also thought about the VOX treble cut. I have the snubbers out now, but I haven't tweaked the tonestack yet. After I get the bass working right again I think the treble may possibly be okay now. Just gotta wait for my gal to work on it.

I'm enjoying the SSS discussion. Learning a lot.