Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

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Travis_HY
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Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Travis_HY »

Hey Fellas,

Firstly, I want to thank everyone at AmpGarage for being so cool about sharing information about such rare amps. It's a pretty amazing resource with lots of people who put information before ego in world where there is a lot of BS. Hopefully I can answer any questions about this build, but I probably know less than others on this forum. I'll walk through the evolution of the build:

I have a 1979 Fender Deluxe Reverb that I have had since I was a kid (about 15 years) and my idea was to modify this chassis into a variation of the Mhartman SSS. Eventually, after days of research, I decided to just buy a new Deluxe Reverb chassis and make a head out of it. I started off with the Mhartman SSS layout, but the driver tube design sharing the screens at 470v+ was really scary. I added the voltage quadrupler circuit that Martin has posted and it really helped: much less heat of course, and overall easier to adjust the bias to accommodate a variety of power tubes. I also changed the filter circuits on the clean channel to Martin's preferred specs with the .0033 to ground. I kept the 3-way local feedback switch as well as the Mid and Deep switches on push/pulls and no bright switch. I hate bright caps most of the time because I like to use pedals into the clean channel.

After initial listening, I pulled the extensive reverb circuit out, changed the B+ string a bit and added a Naylor Superdrive preamp while using the mixer triode for as the "Effects Loop Return" stage before the input of the PI in the Naylor. It has a .001 across the plate resistor driving the EQ and also a .0022 from the output of the EQ's cathode follower 100k resistor to ground. These caps both tame the high end a little bit and smooth out the EQ's hashy clipping. I also added a push/pull pot to engage a clipping circuit a la Jose with a couple transistors. It's a fun sound to play for the super heavy Alice in Chains type sounds and it's sort of a carry over from the Friedman Saturation switch, which sounds cool in a Naked/Naylor circuit.

The feedback network is a variation of the switchable on/off Presence that Henry has posted, but with Naylor values, omitting the grounded .0047/10k network (it had no audible effect to my ears). TBH, the Presence turned all the way up isn't much different tonally than with the presence control turned off, but the ability to darken the high end when it's engaged and turned down is a very nice feature.

There are two relays: 1. Switches the input signal between the Naylor front end and the SSS front end. 2. Switches the output from each preamp to the input of the PI. The transformers are Edcor, OT is 2.2K 100w, and the PT is the 127 a few folks on here have used. Tubes are JJ KT-77's with assorted preamp tubes. THe Heat CT is referenced to a DC voltage and the first preamp tube in the Naylor circuit is heated with DC, not AC as it was still humming. The Edcor PT isn't shielded as well as it should be, unfortunately. I can live with the hum it makes because OT sure is great!

What's remarkable about this amp is that I find myself turning the gain down. I'd like to say that's because of the driver tube making the bass much more cohesive. Either way, this amp has really been a fun experience and I could not have done it without the help of the AmpGarage, so thank you!
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"Genius manifests itself. You got a hammer. You either build a Cathedral or you build a shithouse." - Carl Schroeder
idnotbe
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by idnotbe »

it seems you made a high gain amp with SSS's power section.

my SSS #002 clone (Sebago TF) with CF in power section has MASSIVE dynamics which i've never experienced in the other amps.
and the dynamics seems to come from the power section, because when i turn up the power section (not pre-amp gain), the dynamics increases.

so, i always wish my high gain amps have that dynamics / thump.
and wondered the result from high gain pre-amp + sss power amp.

is it really effective to increase the dynamics / punch / thump??
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martin manning
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by martin manning »

Thanks for the detailed report, and it's great to hear that the driver power supply and filter circuits are working as expected. Sounds like you have a very versatile amp; super clean and super drive! I've been preoccupied for a few days, otherwise I'd have commented sooner.
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martin manning
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by martin manning »

...
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mhartman
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by mhartman »

That looks cool. I love the SuperDrive and really like the SSS, so I would imagine that you have a real beast on your hands (in a good way). Nice work!
Travis_HY
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Travis_HY »

idnotbe wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:28 am so, i always wish my high gain amps have that dynamics / thump.
and wondered the result from high gain pre-amp + sss power amp.

is it really effective to increase the dynamics / punch / thump??
In my experience, the driver tube definitely adds a depth to the low end that is extended in both the dirty Naylor channel and the SSS clean channel. My understanding is that adding the driver tube, like running the OT ultra linear, the headroom/volume doesn't really increase but the point at which the OT/PI saturates is quicker and less gradual on the master volume (someone may correct me on this?). If you want more bass fidelity in the power amp, adding the driver tube would definitely seem to add some. I have heard a handful of Naylors and a handful of Naked amps and they all had fair amount of bass, but no amp I've ever played had the depth in the bass, even at low volumes, that this amp is capable of. Maybe an SVT would be similar, but it's preamp is not as guitar-friendly to me. Even running a line out signal from an amp on a load, using the adjective "big" barely describes the power section; more like "glacial". It's also only a pair of KT-77's (with the secondary impedance halved on a 100w OT with a 2.2k primary), and it still has this bass depth that is unmatched in my experience.
martin manning wrote: Tue Jul 18, 2017 10:09 am Thanks for the detailed report, and it's great to hear that the driver power supply and filter circuits are working as expected. Sounds like you have a very versatile amp; super clean and super drive! I've been preoccupied for a few days, otherwise I'd have commented sooner.
Thanks for chiming in Martin! The threads with your ideas were raked quite a bit over the course of this project, so I am super thankful for your contribution. Hopefully I can write up a few schematics that illustrate the amp correctly soon.
mhartman wrote: Thu Jul 20, 2017 3:13 am That looks cool. I love the SuperDrive and really like the SSS, so I would imagine that you have a real beast on your hands (in a good way). Nice work!
Thanks Mark! Your layout was certainly a large puzzle piece to give this a circuit a try. Thanks for making your projects so available to us-it certainly helped myself with my projects along the way.
As far as the amp being a beast, I run it in a Wet/Dry and it's absolutely insane how big it sounds in this context;
and even bigger when the "Wet" cabinet is a Leslie! :D
"Genius manifests itself. You got a hammer. You either build a Cathedral or you build a shithouse." - Carl Schroeder
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mhartman
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by mhartman »

My pleasure. I'm glad that the layout was helpful. Let's hear some sound clips! That sounds like it is one badass beast!
Travis_HY
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Travis_HY »

mhartman wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2017 2:11 am My pleasure. I'm glad that the layout was helpful. Let's hear some sound clips! That sounds like it is one badass beast!
Firstly, I'd like to apologize, Mike, for calling you Mark! Now that I've publicly embarrassed myself, I may as well go all in and put up an example of my playing and the amp I made for ridicule.

The guitar parts except the intro in the attached MP3 are examples of the dirty Naylor Superdrive channel and the clean Dumble SSS variation channel, which is actually a Low Plate Skyliner spec with 100k plates and 1.5k/10uf cathode arrangement. I also kept the inductor installed as it was sort of pain to remove after I installed the board in the chassis. I don't think it's causing any ill effects tonally. I have considered going to the High Plate spec, but right now that channel sounds really good, and I don't think I want to add the extra gain or bass to it; it seems to have adequate amounts of both.

I changed the Superdrive channel slightly after this was recorded; removing the .001 cap across the 100K plate resistor on the cathode follower and the .002 cap across the 100k cathode of the cathode follower to a three way .001uf-none-.002uf across the cathode. I think this is more flexible. Maybe now that I've sort of settled on a spec, I can write up a schematic.

I also have to point out that cabinets used are actually impulse responses and not a real cabinets. I have been experimenting for years with silent recording and this method is a new method to me that is really amazing-I was very happy with these results. My Fryette Power Station was used as the 8 ohm load. A Hiwatt-esque amp I built was on bass duty with bass cabinet impulse responses. I was more surprised with those IR's than the guitar cabinets!
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"Genius manifests itself. You got a hammer. You either build a Cathedral or you build a shithouse." - Carl Schroeder
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mhartman
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by mhartman »

No problem at all (I've been called much worse). 8)

Really sweet sounding amp! I love non-paint by numbers cool and creative builds like this. Nice work!!
Rockwell666
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Rockwell666 »

sounds fantastic!
caps8419
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by caps8419 »

Thick! Great clip! Looking forward to that schematic. :-)
Travis_HY
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Travis_HY »

Hey Guys,

Here's some schematics. Sorry they took forever. I think everything is right.
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Last edited by Travis_HY on Tue May 15, 2018 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Genius manifests itself. You got a hammer. You either build a Cathedral or you build a shithouse." - Carl Schroeder
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martin manning
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by martin manning »

Looks good! I've made a few more tweaks to the filter circuit that you might want to pick up, and based on that I think a linear taper pot would be a better choice for your low filter control.
Travis_HY
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by Travis_HY »

martin manning wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:02 am Looks good! I've made a few more tweaks to the filter circuit that you might want to pick up, and based on that I think a linear taper pot would be a better choice for your low filter control.
Thanks for the heads-up Martin! I'll definitely check out the tweaks for the filter-I have a stash of some lovely .0068uF GE mustard caps which is a pleasant coincidence for the Low Filter control.

I was running the first preamp tube on 12vdc heaters but the regulator failed recently (that's why on the schematic only the relays are being powered by 12vdc and all tubes are AC heaters), and I reckon to think it was because the filter cap value of 1000uF was too small with the first preamp tube being D.C. heaters? The regulator got really hot within seconds even without the preamp tube it powered being inserted in its socket and it also had no voltage on the input of the regulator (meaning one of the diodes in the rectifier failed, no?). It's strange, because I've used this power supply, albeit with a 1A auxiliary transformer, to power similar arrangements in other amps, and I have had no problems. Maybe the 500ma rating on the Edcor is not as stout as it claims? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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Re: Dumble SSS/Naylor Superdrive Build

Post by pompeiisneaks »

Travis_HY wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:33 pm
martin manning wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:02 am Looks good! I've made a few more tweaks to the filter circuit that you might want to pick up, and based on that I think a linear taper pot would be a better choice for your low filter control.
Thanks for the heads-up Martin! I'll definitely check out the tweaks for the filter-I have a stash of some lovely .0068uF GE mustard caps which is a pleasant coincidence for the Low Filter control.

I was running the first preamp tube on 12vdc heaters but the regulator failed recently (that's why on the schematic only the relays are being powered by 12vdc and all tubes are AC heaters), and I reckon to think it was because the filter cap value of 1000uF was too small with the first preamp tube being D.C. heaters? The regulator got really hot within seconds even without the preamp tube it powered being inserted in its socket and it also had no voltage on the input of the regulator (meaning one of the diodes in the rectifier failed, no?). It's strange, because I've used this power supply, albeit with a 1A auxiliary transformer, to power similar arrangements in other amps, and I have had no problems. Maybe the 500ma rating on the Edcor is not as stout as it claims? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Sounds possible that the regulator may need better heat dissipation. a heatsink etc. Either that or it's not rated to handle the extra current you're giving it with that tube and the relays as well? You'd need to consult the datasheet, there's a max current rating, but I think there's also a max rating with no heat sinking that you can't exceed without using the right kind of heatsink etc. I read up on it in merlin's hifi book but dont' fully understand all the exacting details. You could replace it with one way over amperage to allow it to run cooler, or replace it with the same kind and get some kind of heatsink attached.
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