To those who voted.

[Structo]

Well, I'm a conservative, so I will leave it at that.

[Ears]

<snip> On top of that, after 8 years of pure hatred shown to one of our persidents, I'm going to draw the line and refues to carry that same torch for the other side. I'm going to take a page form the good book by praying for my country and doing my best to honor its laws and leaders.

4 years of Obama? Bring it on. (group hug)

Alright, back to soldering.

"pure hatred" ? To whom do you presume to attribute that to?

Edit: I ask because I feel that is very strong judgment and I for one certainly don't hate him (George W Bush). Whilst is true that he is both regarded very poorly and his unilateral policies have caused dismay to huge swathes of the world's population, especially in Europe and other traditional friends of the US, that judgment is not "pure hatred". Most people are quite capable of disapproval without hatred. As such I don't feel the statement should slide by without comment.

[M Fowler]

I listened to Obama for four months leading up to the election and I didn't get any answers from his smooth talking say nothing brash attitude. I hope he isn't the person I sense he is and I have always had an ability to see right through people when other couldn't. Sometimes I don't think that sense is a gift anymore.

Mark

[skyboltone]

Let me preface all this with an observation you may well not be aware of Ears. Namely that politics in the US are more polarized than at any time possibly since our Civil War, in the mid 1860s. The pure hatred poured out daily by the left has become nausiating. to say the least.

"his unilateral policies have caused dismay to huge swathes of the world's population"

Simply not true. Sorry. Nothing in the least unilateral about it. And don't forget America was attacked. He had backing from a majority of both houses of congress and quite a number of other nations up until it became politically expedient to disagree. The only non participants were the French and Germans; but then if you know your history you know they have always been ready to embrace the newest dictator.

The Aussies showed up, as did, if I'm not mistaken some of your own countrymen. That was good. There will always be huge swathes of the world's population who are in favor of conquering the world by force, or just plane killing people for fun. It's the nature of humankind. For the most part humans suck. Thank God the US has been there these last 90 years or so. I wonder what your part of the world would look like if the US had failed to respond to the Japanese on December 7th, 1941? What if we had pulled back to our contiguous borders and said to hell with it? Their occupation of China, Indochina, and the Philippines was a model of the master race taking care of business. Between them and the Germans there were 55 million dead around the world. For our part we've never demanded a single acre of ground for our efforts beyond that required to bury our dead.

Have you had your first Muslim bombing in OZ yet? You know, they hate you too.

[Allynmey]

Remember guys...this is a civil forum. I'm glad that there isn't any real fighting going on in this thread especially after this political season. Nothing wrong with disscussing politics in Garage Talk though....

So Have at it but keep civil...please

After all... this isn't Harmony Central!

[tomrasdf]

""pure hatred" ? To whom do you presume to attribute that to? "

Not to you friend. I apologize if that came across as a broad generalization for all who disapproved with Bush's policies. It's quite possible to openly diagree with with a world leader without feeling 'pure hatred' for them.

There were lots of folks in America (several of whom are my personal friends) who, ever since the 2000 election, have nurtured an irrational mistrust and hatred of Bush that has lead to most disgraceful, undeserved, and reprehensible treatment of a world leader that I'm aware of.

I wish president Obama success in his presidency. I think he's wrong on many issues, and I plan to be open in discussing why I think so with others. What I will not tolorate is the unfiltered, well publicized hatred that we saw coming out of some during the Bush years. Things like this "Impeach Obama" group that's already popped up on facebook? WTF? That's disgraceful. Let's keep it together, America...

[Ears]

Let me preface all this with an observation you may well not be aware of Ears. Namely that politics in the US are more polarized than at any time possibly since our Civil War, in the mid 1860s. The pure hatred poured out daily by the left has become nausiating. to say the least.

"his unilateral policies have caused dismay to huge swathes of the world's population"

Simply not true....

Actually Dan, I wasn't thinking Iraq when I wrote that but of Kyoto protocol and the World Court, and the abandonment of 700 hundred year old principle of Habeus Corpus.
Nevertheless I, and I believe many others throughout the world, do regard many US actions of the past 8 years, including aspects of the "War on Terror" as being generally unilaterally taken. But one should not get angry over that nor interprete that as 'anti-USA' sentiment, but rather as anti the policies of the Bush admin. That is an important distinction, I beg you not to lose sight of it. To the US falls an extra burden of tolerance to such considered criticism, since US policies affect us all, worldwide.
I'm absolutely ecstatic over yesterday's result. I also hugely admire Mr McCain but I don't think many US citizens truly realise, although you may well suspect, how deeply most of the world want to assign legacy of the Bush admin to status of an historical aberration, to the world in general Obama appears as best canditate to ensure that.
So be proud of yesterday's result, no matter how you feel about Obama, as in the eyes of the world the result is a winner for US democracy.
Richard


Edit: and Oh yes, they got approx 80 young Aussies and 3 NZers in Bali.
Execution of culprits due right now. Unfortunately that sentence although emotionally satisfying is likely counterproductive.

[skyboltone]

I would be a hell of a lot happier if he didn't also control both houses of Congress and have a nearly bullet proof majority in the Senate. America works best with divided government. As it now stands he has more power than any one man should have. Not good.

I too look forward to some changes in health care policy. The funny part is I have great coverage but it was only McCain that espoused making my HMO coverage portable across state lines. Obama is dead set against it.

If I could move from Kaiser (HMO) California to Kaiser Washington I could get the hell out of loonyland and build a home on my nice bayside lot in Port Townsend. (look at the extreme north eastern corner of the Olympic Peninsula across from Seattle) Currently federal law prohibits it for some weird unfathomable reason? The other issue dear to my heart is this illegal alien business. I'm with Bush and McCain on this issue. Knock the damn border down and let these people work in peace. I grew up with every second person in my classroom named Garcia, Lopez, Hernandez, etc. Human values extend across borders. Anyway, pray for gridlock in government. The less they accomplish the better off we are.

And yes, bring the troops home on the Iraqi timetable. Stabilize Afganistan. And if the freeking Iranian government gets a deliverable nuclear warhead, it's over. Isreal has them too. Nuclear winter. Oddly enough, the Germans and French understand that. Now they crying, "Hey American" bail us out of this one. It's my guess that before it's over the world will look fondly at the Bush doctrin.

[Tubetwang]

[quote="skyboltone"] And don't forget America was attacked. He had backing from a majority of both houses of congress and quite a number of other nations up until it became politically expedient to disagree. The only non participants were the French and Germans; but then if you know your history you know they have always been ready to embrace the newest dictator.




With all due respect...French and Germans did not participated cuz...huh...er...they knew better...
Going after Sadam was a big costly mistake...They should of gone after the Talibans and what' is name...


It will not be easy for Obama...
Dude has a full plate.

But then again it's never been easy...

From "strange fruits" to President...

[gearhead]

I
The country's only hope is that he goes ahead with plans to tax us out of the recession we're in. The last guy to try that was Herbert Hoover. That tactic will cost him both houses of congress come 2010. Then back to divided government. Hurrah!

That taxing policy, coupled with a reduction in government spending, was what caused the Great Depression. The market crash in 29 was just a precursor and not the cause.

[gearhead]

Actually Dan, I wasn't thinking Iraq when I wrote that but of Kyoto protocol and the World Court, and the abandonment of 700 hundred year old principle of Habeus Corpus.

Kyoto Protocol: If it doesn't include China and India, that's economic suicide as well as completely ignoring the world leader in cabon emissions, China.

World Court: USA withdrew more than 20 years ago from mandatory participation, not recently. USA participates on a case-by-case basis.

Habeus Corpus: There hasn't been such a borderless, countryless force of combatants in 700 years. Are they POWs or criminals? They're both in many respects. I dare say that 700 to 100 years ago they would have been summarily executed.

[skyboltone]

Actually Dan, I wasn't thinking Iraq when I wrote that but of Kyoto protocol and the World Court, and the abandonment of 700 hundred year old principle of Habeus Corpus.

Kyoto Protocol: If it doesn't include China and India, that's economic suicide as well as completely ignoring the world leader in cabon emissions, China.

World Court: USA withdrew more than 20 years ago from mandatory participation, not recently. USA participates on a case-by-case basis.

Habeus Corpus: There hasn't been such a borderless, countryless force of combatants in 700 years. Are they POWs or criminals? They're both in many respects. I dare say that 700 to 100 years ago they would have been summarily executed.

I agree to all except the 700-100 years ago bit. In Occupied Germany and Japan after WW2 "Freedom Fighters" WERE summarily executed. We're a kinder gentler nation now.

[jaysg]

Politics are...well, over a lifetime, you get the chance to revisit how you felt when. For example, I was in college during the "Dump the Shah" era. All but one of the Iranians I knew were big into this. When it happened, they all stoppped receiving money, had to get jobs, switched to part time in engineering school...but not one moved back to be part of the glorious revolution.

Anyway, back to the Shah. Was he a terrible man? Yes. Would we and/or Iran be better off if his family was still in power?

[kec]

I would be a hell of a lot happier if he didn't also control both houses of Congress and have a nearly bullet proof majority in the Senate. America works best with divided government. As it now stands he has more power than any one man should have. Not good.

I totally agree Sky! This also worries me, a lot.

Bush may have the lowest approval rating, but the Democratic congress is even lower. We need checks & balances.

[delux1959]

I think part of the problem we face is due to all the partisan fighting. This country only see's red and blue. Its so disturbing that the only people who are invited to the debates are the ones with plenty of money behind them. There were about 6 other names on the ballot in my state whom I have never heard of or heard from. Money talks in this country and that is a sad state of affairs. Never mind if the candidate is red or blue. We need change from Bush's cronyism and Obama seems to be the lesser of all evils. And there all Evil!!