50Hz vs 60Hz cycles - tonal impact?

[R.G.]

If you can detect small differences for the whole band, I suggest that you look into constant voltage (aka ferroresonant) transfomers. Unlike tap changers and bucking devices, these things actually do regulate AC voltage. They will give you tightly regulated AC as an output, with no electronics other than the transformer and its resonating capacitor. As a side benefit they are incredibly capable filters of the AC line. They basically let through none of the spikes, noise, and so on that AC mains, perhaps especially in your typical club or small venue, have on them, and also usually have outputs that are isolated from the AC mains ground entirely. That is, you can run independent of the (possibly terrible and noisy) AC mains ground in whatever place you play. Great stuff.

About the only drawback to them is that they are heavy and an added expense. To run your entire band, you'll need one with enough volt-ampere (VA) rating to supply all the power. This is pretty easy for a single amp or two, but a whole band with a PA and multiple amps need a couple of KW, and enough AC mains to feed its own primary.

As another aside, if getting just the right AC voltage is that critical, you're in effect asking for the amp(s) to have internal voltage regulation. This is something that almost all modern electronics devices use, but all tube guitar users think is the work of the devil. Need a stable, predictable B+ and everything derived from it? Design a regulator setup to do that even when it's being fed from +-15% AC mains and not work up a sweat.

[pdf64]

…
Is there a version of the Hammond organ with a tone wheel box designed for 50Hz that was sold in Europe ?

Yes, Hammonds (and their Leslies) are a thing over here.
I recall a friend (whose group had Hammond Leslie as a key part of their sound) describing a disaster of a festival gig, where a generator used for power didn’t maintain a stable frequency

[Bombacaototal]

I have been increasingly curious if the 50Hz to 60Hz will have tonal impacts on my Bandmaster.

40:56
https://youtu.be/rNvOUmwPiUQ

Yep! I was looking at Kikusui 500M, which is the smallest unit, but it costs over GBP 2K. Hard investment but I am close to pulling the trigger as soon as I have the funds as I think it will make a world of difference to me

https://telonic.co.uk/product/kikusui-p ... 0hz-500va/

[WhopperPlate]

If you can detect small differences for the whole band, I suggest that you look into constant voltage (aka ferroresonant) transfomers. Unlike tap changers and bucking devices, these things actually do regulate AC voltage. They will give you tightly regulated AC as an output, with no electronics other than the transformer and its resonating capacitor. As a side benefit they are incredibly capable filters of the AC line. They basically let through none of the spikes, noise, and so on that AC mains, perhaps especially in your typical club or small venue, have on them, and also usually have outputs that are isolated from the AC mains ground entirely. That is, you can run independent of the (possibly terrible and noisy) AC mains ground in whatever place you play. Great stuff.

About the only drawback to them is that they are heavy and an added expense. To run your entire band, you'll need one with enough volt-ampere (VA) rating to supply all the power. This is pretty easy for a single amp or two, but a whole band with a PA and multiple amps need a couple of KW, and enough AC mains to feed its own primary.

As another aside, if getting just the right AC voltage is that critical, you're in effect asking for the amp(s) to have internal voltage regulation. This is something that almost all modern electronics devices use, but all tube guitar users think is the work of the devil. Need a stable, predictable B+ and everything derived from it? Design a regulator setup to do that even when it's being fed from +-15% AC mains and not work up a sweat.

RG , tell me more ! Sounds like an investment worthy of consideration.

The power regulators I used were big ol TrippLite units that we would use to run our PA systems from when I did live sound . Though they only regulate the line voltage to +-5vac from 120vav, tripping when the voltage falls above or below that threshold, but the extra filtering and isolation are imperative enough on their own .

For myself (who’s obviously the most nit picky sensitive jerkoff in the band ) my amps get the variacs tapped off the regulator at whatever voltage the amp was biased, with Marshall super leads usually about 42ma El34s @ 115vac is my preference .

As far as internal DC regulation…well I don’t think those ghostly and saggy harmonics are going to benefit from that notoriously low current power supply being kept stable to any degree … stable AC source outside the amplifier has a different effect altogether…

I guess there will also be some discrepancy with term “voltage regulation”. A truly regulated and stable power source isn’t necessarily what I was referencing with my experience . That’s a privilege scenario few would even consider. I do wonder how everything would sound in that equation

Anyways, I digress … ferroresonant transformers… my curiousity is peaked…

Edit :

https://www.sunpower-uk.com/glossary/wh ... er-supply/

Informative article for wrapping around head

[WhopperPlate]

I have been increasingly curious if the 50Hz to 60Hz will have tonal impacts on my Bandmaster.

40:56
https://youtu.be/rNvOUmwPiUQ

Yep! I was looking at Kikusui 500M, which is the smallest unit, but it costs over GBP 2K. Hard investment but I am close to pulling the trigger as soon as I have the funds as I think it will make a world of difference to me

https://telonic.co.uk/product/kikusui-p ... 0hz-500va/

I want so bad ever since I saw the AC DC rig rundown .

[R.G.]

As far as internal DC regulation…well I don’t think those ghostly and saggy harmonics are going to benefit from that notoriously low current power supply being kept stable to any degree … stable AC source outside the amplifier has a different effect altogether…

I guess there will also be some discrepancy with term “voltage regulation”. A truly regulated and stable power source isn’t necessarily what I was referencing with my experience . That’s a privilege scenario few would even consider. I do wonder how everything would sound in that equation

Yeah, there are some descrepancies there. Most people think of "voltage regulation" as a way to get a rock solid, no-variation-allowed, zero-impedance voltage at any current. That's fair, as that is the direction most voltage regulators go. But it's also fair to think of a voltage regulator as a signal source. That is, it is there to provide a voltage "signal" into a load, and with variations in the source voltage depending on how much current flows. This is an analogy to the differences in solid state and tube amps. SS amps are the rock-solid option, with an infinite-current death grip in the speakers, and the tube amps with a higher internal impedance that frees the speaker to flop around a bit on its own. It's entirely possible to design a DC regulator with some internal impedance that sags and in general reacts like a rectifier/filter/capacitor source, less and except that pesky ripple voltage. In fact, it's pretty easy, although I've never seen anyone do it that way.

It gets back to where those ghostly and saggy harmonics come from. If they come from interactions with the power supply, you could do something like putting a nearly perfect DC voltage source ahead of a small inductor in series, a big inductor to ground, a resistor, and run this into the diodes/capacitors making B+. The passive parts model the internal impedance of the power transformer, leaving out any core distortion (yep, transformers do that) and or magnetic field funnies, as well as not creating ripple voltage for the filters to work on. The amplifier sipping from this cup then gets all the DC, sag, etc, but without the AC ripple stuff, and is as perfectly regulated as the input DC source. That is, the B+ it makes does all the sag and wobble, and interaction with the amp that the AC powered thing did, but it always recovers to the tightly regulated DC level it's fed. This is much like having perfectly regulated AC feeding the setup.

[WhopperPlate]

you could do something like putting a nearly perfect DC voltage source ahead of a small inductor in series, a big inductor to ground, a resistor, and run this into the diodes/capacitors making B+. The passive parts model the internal impedance of the power transformer, leaving out any core distortion (yep, transformers do that) and or magnetic field funnies, as well as not creating ripple voltage for the filters to work on. The amplifier sipping from this cup then gets all the DC, sag, etc, but without the AC ripple stuff, and is as perfectly regulated as the input DC source. That is, the B+ it makes does all the sag and wobble, and interaction with the amp that the AC powered thing did, but it always recovers to the tightly regulated DC level it's fed. This is much like having perfectly regulated AC feeding the setup.

Sounds cheaper than a kikusui . I want to build this now .

[R.G.]

Bear in mind that it's an experiment. Remember that stuff about "if it's the dc voltage, not the ripple content"?
But I think it's a good experiment. You'll need a way to supply DC about 50-80 VDC higher than the B+ you want, and at enough current so the DC supply itself never sags. It amounts to building well filtered DC supply at about 550-600Vdc, then a regulator that drops off the excess volts at the full B+ max-ever current.