Capacitor cocktail - types, locations

[donzoid]

"I wish I didn't hear a difference and that I could just be happy plugging into a Marshall and be done with it. It's a blessing and a curse."

...Funny guy! I did that for about 30 years, and like Structo as a 50 something I question my own damage, but only for a short time. But now it's an addiction (though much more beneficial than my "other addictions").
From what you described, that's exactly the approach I would use, by trying the mallory's in the PI PA couplers. My feeling is the cap is more critical as you move up the signal chain (top being input grid from the guitar jack). Your Dijon's will get most bang for the bucks in the V1 / V2 areas.

From what I've read here, they break in nicely so hopefully you have some hours on them before passing full judgement.

[Reeltarded]

Don't taste electricity. I was being silly.

[Gainzilla]

Don't taste electricity. I was being silly.

ROFL. That is solid advice. I wasn't sure if you were using taste as a metaphor.

Cheers

[Gainzilla]

Thanks donzoid, I'll give that a try. I don't really have any plans on pulling the Dijons just yet, but it's good to know they need to break in. I may build one of the capacitor burn-in boxes the guys at 18watt use for my next project.

I do wonder how much my own hearing damage has impacted my perception. I spent way too much time on stages with loud guitars and a loud drummer. Makes me wonder if my hearing damage left me hypersensitive to certain frequencies. Maybe it is all in my head...

[Reeltarded]

It's an inside joke. You are on the inside I guess..

It stemmed from people asking stupid questions without paying any attention to safe practices. It's the vanilla/bacon B+ test.

[lord preset]

Don't taste electricity. I was being silly.

One can never be too careful.

[Reeltarded]

I love gel pak caviar.

[Gainzilla]

I love gel pak caviar.

Nasty! lol

[gui_tarzan]

I too have a slight case of tinnitus and I attribute that to both eardrums bursting several years ago due to a massive sinus infection. I used to be able to hear high frequencies above everyone else I was around, but that is gone. Also at 52, I know my hearing isn't as sharp as it was when I was younger.

Having said that, I would like to think I can still tell quality from not-so-much quality, but most of my listening outside gigs is done through good quality earbuds. Once in a while I play with drummers that make my ears ring fairly loudly by the end of the night and that sets off the tinnitus to the point where I have to have music playing through my earbuds at a low volume to get to sleep.

But as far as telling one cap from another, I can't do it. I don't have the decades of changing them to be able to tell, I just know what sounds good and what doesn't. Given that there are many factors to tone from the circuit to the speakers to the guitar to the player's fingers, it's not easy to point to one or the other anymore. That's a little frustrating for me, but it is what it is.

I use Mallory 150s on my builds and mods/repairs, and I like the sound of them. None of my customers have complained either, so far they've liked them as well. I'm sure orange drops have their place but there's too much hype around them for me.

[R.G.]

Let me be clear about my thoughts on capacitors.

I used to be certain that you *could not* hear differences if the values were the same.

I have come around to being an agnostic, not a believer. There are measurable differences in some cases, as in electrolytic (the universal bad example) versus other, as well as ceramic being both microphonic and piezoelectric, which are probably two faces of the same thing.

As for, say, mylar versus polypro, that gets murkier. The human mind can draw conclusions from very incomplete data, so it's possible. The human mind can also draw conclusions from bona fide random data, as well as fooling itself.

If you're wanting to set up a suggested list of capacitors for various recipes, I think a good place to start would be to determine:

(1) Whether in fact different caps can be distinguished from one another at a rate better than random guessing by doing a true blind ABX test, administered properly, with a variety of source material and tones. If capacitor types are in fact so easy to distinguish by ear alone, I would expect high-90s accuracy in saying which was one cap, which another, and which was no cap at all. This is in fact what many people say they can do.

(2) If that test shows yes, they're easy to distinguish, you can then adapt the ABX test with various signals, like sine waves to tell the frequency response and any harmonics or "chime", whatever; square waves to get phase response differences and spectrum difference, and white or pink noise to hear broadband differences; music too, recorded so that the exact same signal is used for each test.

(3) That gives you the basis to start describing caps in terms of tone, to start saying with some profound basis that polypro has [whatever polypro has or misses] versus polystyrene having [whatever polysty has or misses] versus multilayer ceramic, versus mica, versus whatever.

(4) Now you're ready to start doing combinations. With the individual knowledge, you can start doing simple combinations, seeing how they interact.

The advantage of this somewhat laborious approach is that you have a firm, accurately documented set of information, culled from the response of the human ear, that most sensitive and discerning of audio detectors. It's a great start towards a capacitor cookbook, and you don't have to rely on the opinions of people on the internet - which after all contains some elements that might adulter the basic data they share, and which are not reproduceable.

Reproduceability is after all what you assume you'll get and a crucial first step when you start combining elements into recipes.

[schaublin65]

Hi,

trying to find hard and fast rules that apply to the sonic effect of caps seems about as easy as predicting the internal workings of the human brain.

The old joke...

"I think my girlfriend is so sweet. But my wife hates her."

Take care...............

John

[Structo]

You can't paint with a broad brush by simply saying, Orange drop.
Sure they may be similar in appearance but have different properties.

There are a few different types as to polyester or polypropylene caps.

Mylar is a trade name of polyester film by Dupont.

There are film and foil types as well as metalized film capacitors.

The Dumble overdrive amps typically use polyester film caps, the SBE 6PS which is a polyester 600v cap.

There has been some concern about the SBE division since Cornell Dubilier bought the company a year or so ago.

[RWood]

Don't taste electricity. I was being silly.

Duracel 9v taste better than Eveready 9v.

So many different things go into forming the final sonic qualities that I'd loose my mind trying to knitpick such things as cap brand/type.
I'm sure that a slight differences in actual resistance value feeding electrical signal to the different caps will affect the sonic qualities in different caps far more than brand, which is where I'll focus what little attention I have.

I did a dead blind switching box test on a few caps ff the same value where one of my pals did the switching. I heard a difference a couple of times when he pretended to switch. I also recall the best Deluxe Reverb I've ever heard which had all cheap IC electrolytics, Mallory couplers and ceramic pfs

If you can hear it then more power to you, but my 58 year old ears no longer can, even if they could when I was 20.

Tubes on the other hand...

[Gainzilla]

Here is what I know for a solid gold fact. I swapped out 6 caps in this amp of the same value, just swapping out Mallory 150s for the Dijons, and the difference was more than just noticeable. It was like a totally different amp. Better in all ways except the looser bass... To me anyway. I get that that's a totally subjective and personal evaluation. I'm trying to achieve a tone that I like, but others will have a completely different and equally valid take on it.

What I would like to understand why I heard a difference. Polypropylene vs Polyester? Construction? Quality of materials? Quality control?

It does seem like a bit of an apples to oranges comparison.
Sozo = Polyester film
Mallory 150 = Polyester film
Dijon = Polypropylene film
715P = Polypropylene film
716P = Polypropylene film
225P = Polyester film

Kind of reluctant to even mention PIO caps (no experience with them).

[roberto]

I would ask "where" you have found differencies.
And also how you can make them more noticeable.