Going from prototype to production

[Aurora]

I agree with Gimp- an internal fuse for the HV might be a good idea- reasonably oversized and fast blow should do the trick - or same fuse in an external high quality holder, where the screw cap clamps the fuse...
As for fuse sizing- I'm not too familiar with HV fuses in tube amps.....driven VERY hard, there will be transient current load peaks well over rated max, but how much really depends on the PT.....
My experience in this context is mostly with High End HiFi, where PTs are usually grossly overrrated as not to sag , or modulate, the secondary voltage........

AS for law suits and stuff - I don't know if you are familiar with the SawStop case - where Ryobi ( I think ) got to pay a fairly hefty compensation to a man who injured his hand on a Ryobi table saw, because Ryobi did not use the patented SawStop technology - invented by the SawStop company... and guess what - the inventor and patent holder is - you guessed - a LAWYER !!!!!

This is like sewing Ford, because their 15 year old pickup didn't have ABS brakes, who was already in use by other car mfgrs at the same time....
I mean no disrespect to the US as such, but cases like this is only possible in the US, I think.....
I just can't see a case like Ryobi / SawStop happen over here.....

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/edit ... w-not-good

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/edit ... op-lawsuit

[TheGimp]

You chamfer those holes at some point right? Chamfering hard to reach holes takes me longer than drilling out an entire enclosure sometimes. I need to get one of those little zippy tools for the hard-to-reach holes. I found a pair of bent-nose pliers work as a quick sub if the hole is going to be hidden (and you don't care about your pliers).

I use a little hand deburring tool for most holes, a large (1") drill for the smaller ones.

I forgot the IEC power connector hole and had to go back and open it up.

Jigs and special tools no matter how crude can be a real time saver and make your job much easier.

[C Moore]

I agree with Gimp- an internal fuse for the HV might be a good idea- reasonably oversized and fast blow should do the trick - or same fuse in an external high quality holder, where the screw cap clamps the fuse...
As for fuse sizing- I'm not too familiar with HV fuses in tube amps.....driven VERY hard, there will be transient current load peaks well over rated max, but how much really depends on the PT.....
My experience in this context is mostly with High End HiFi, where PTs are usually grossly overrrated as not to sag , or modulate, the secondary voltage........

AS for law suits and stuff - I don't know if you are familiar with the SawStop case - where Ryobi ( I think ) got to pay a fairly hefty compensation to a man who injured his hand on a Ryobi table saw, because Ryobi did not use the patented SawStop technology - invented by the SawStop company... and guess what - the inventor and patent holder is - you guessed - a LAWYER !!!!!

This is like sewing Ford, because their 15 year old pickup didn't have ABS brakes, who was already in use by other car mfgrs at the same time....
I mean no disrespect to the US as such, but cases like this is only possible in the US, I think.....
I just can't see a case like Ryobi / SawStop happen over here.....

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/edit ... w-not-good

http://www.protoolreviews.com/news/edit ... op-lawsuit

No....you are correct. The USA legal system is a joke. We take homeless people to court.....on drug charges. Can you believe that? Some guy, living in a card board box, with 83 cents in change, gets hauled to jail, for possession of 5 Vicodin; and it costs the county $200,000.00 in legal fees, court fees, police time, booking, feed, etc. etc. Then the homeless guy has to attend substance abuse classes, that he cannot afford to pay for, cannot get to, does not have any use for, for 6 months.
Yeah, so if some Moron, working on one of Cliff's amps, gets shocked and drops the amp on his foot; he hires an attorney, looses the case, but it costs Cliff $39,000.00 in fees, fines, parking fees, forms, notaries, subpoenas, etc. etc.
My wife had a backline business for a few years. You cannot believe some of the legal stuff we had to deal with. We got sued, by a fairly well known musician, because one of his road crew hurt his back, while lifting one of our AC30's. We won the case, but it took 18 months to settle, cost thousands in legal fees, and all the peripherals that go along with it.
If you have never had any "legal problems", then you have absolutely no idea what goes on in a courtroom. You will be in depositions, and several "hearings' before a judge will ever hear your case, or hardly even utters a word. At first, attorneys for both sides will go through all their legal maneuvering, continuances, stalling, documentation disappearing, et. etc. before the judge gets involved. Most of the time, the judge just schedules the calender. Be prepared to hear A LOT of "OK, so you want to come back in 2 weeks".......?
Selling amps would involve a lot less exposure to the public, but you get the gist. It just takes one law suit to wipe you out, take your money, your dignity, and respect for other human beings. Do not take man kind lightly. it can cost you $30,000.00 to save $6,000.00.
Start your business, do not hesitate, pursue and enjoy it. But get as much legal advice as you can afford. Have a good contract, for your customers to sign, that protects you as much as possible.
Good Luck

[dreric]

I had a patient who won a six figure settlement for facial and arm burns because a can of WD40 ignited in her hand. Her gas dryer was squeaking while it ran so she decided to put it out from the wall, reach around back and blindly spray WD40 into the dryer motor area while it was running. The basis of her suit was that the dryer company should have foreseen possibility this and placed written warning on the machine.

Man, that is amazing....so the court thinks she could read?

To make it better she admitted to being intoxicated while doing this. It's just about what is cheaper for the defense settle or fight.

In fairness, I've seen equal numbers of people totally screwed out of benefits they deserve and in many cases were awarded in court. California used to have Workman's Compensation, now if you are an injured work in the state of California you are screwed.

e

[Aurora]

HM -- maybe we should stop scaring Cliff away from his chosen path....

[Structo]

I don't know nothin about nothin but I have a couple friends that have tried starting businesses.

The first thing to do is get a small business license, then incorporate yourself so that you cannot be personally sued for damages.
That insulates yourself from the business.

Copyright or trademark all brands or logos.

In otherwords, take a look at Fender and Dumble and see where they made mistakes and learn from that.

I wonder how Chinese companies are able to market crap electronic devices here?
Reminds me of the early 60's when Japan was flooding the market with cheap electronics before they got it down to a science.

I was looking at some Chinese Hi Fi tube power amps that were point to point and it looked like a child had soldered the components together.
No fuse, or power switch either!

[RJ Guitars]

Cliff,

I think I agree with almost everything that has been said to one degree or another. Make it good, make it consistent, make it affordable, make it safe, etc.. Your small business advisory folks can run you through the list and set you up with all that stuff.

For me, I read a couple of posts that I think I resonate with in a higher degree. Get that amp into the hands of someone who will market it for you by simply using it. Recording studios, Music stores, and more than anything else, a Pro player.

I think it was Joe Walsh that gave Dr. Z some critical air time and introduced us all to the Carman Ghia with that big "Z" on it (I think the Dr. hangs out here now and then, maybe he will comment?). Carlos Santana gave the Mesa Boogie their name and the critical endorsement. I am inclined to give away amps and loose money, so I might be the last person you want to listen to for a business plan. I do think having a Pro use your amp could help bring success (depending on how you define success). Ken Fischer reportedly never made a lot of money, but he defines a successful amp company in my book.

YMMV,

rj

[M Fowler]

Joe Walsh wanted a 100w version of the Carmen Ghia, but no can do doc said and made the Mazerati amp named from Joe's song driving 195.

[iknowjohnny]

You may want to check this guy out for the cabinets. His prices are really good and i think if you talked with him he might work a deal with you for the kind of volume you hopefully will need. http://www.newellamps.com/catalog.1.html

[Cliff Schecht]

I go through my friend (WWW.texasdragon.com) for custom cabs usually. Can't beat $75 for a 13 birch ply head cab with duratex coating, hardware and handle.

[Phil_S]

Hey Cliff,
Don't let the bad stories scare you off. Sure, the bad stuff happens, sometimes to people who were really careful. IMO, you need two competent professionals who are experienced in helping people launch a business that has a risk profile. The two people are a CPA and a lawyer.

You need the CPA to make sure you pay minimum tax and have maximum profit -- the tax code is jungle. Financial management is loaded with land mines. You should be able to get good general business advice from the CPA, too. The CPA is a person who has seen people make critical business mistakes and can help you stay away from those. The CPA will be cheaper to talk to than the lawyer and probably more willing to talk. BTW, in fairness, I should tell you that I'm a CPA, but don't practice in this niche.

The other person you need is a lawyer -- one who knows about small business and won't nickel and dime you to death. I work a guy who is willing to hear from me that I need him to keep it to a dull roar. Even so, the last thing I needed from him -- a contract review -- was $850. I had an indemnity issue that was a deal breaker and I needed his help to get over the hump, which we did when he clarified my position to the lawyer on the other side (who, BTW, was not the sharpest tool in the shed). The good ones cost money and this is the wrong place to get cheap. Be prepared in this area to use up some capital. At the very least, the lawyer will help you understand the risks you choose to take. Also, the lawyer will help you sort out fact from fiction. Like I said earlier, you'll get all sorts of advice, so it is important to have someone who can give you an idea of what will hold water and what won't. For example, do you even know whether you should form an LLC, a C corp, or an S corp and what this means with respect to liability?

So, please educate yourself and find well recommended professional help. Prepare before you meet with them or get them on the phone to minimize billable time and maximize what you get. Keep notes.

Please, invest your time in making a proper business plan. There are good books you can find on making a business plan. Show your plan to people you respect. Be open to suggestions. If you have a strong plan, then you use it as the guidepost. Without it, you are lost in the weeds, with no clear way to measure or benchmark where you are, where you came from, or where you are going. Keep telling yourself, "plan your work, work your plan."

Phil

[TheGimp]

I posted this in one of the Dumble threads, but for those of you who don't read them I'll post it here too. We have a Safety Engineer on site who interfaces to all the agencys for our products.

He volenteered to check all the UL files he has access to and he can not find a single tube amplifier listed!

I've also started checking Fender and other manuals images of the backs of amps, etc, and find no UL listings.

Can anyone produce documentation of a tube amp with UL Certification?

[Deric]

The first thing to do is get a small business license, then incorporate yourself so that you cannot be personally sued for damages.
That insulates yourself from the business.

In most states, incorporation offers little to no protection from being personally held responsible for your products.

The two people are a CPA and a lawyer.

VERY good advice but I would add one more: a GOOD insurance agent.

Cover your ass as best as possible, build a great product, treat people fairly and you just might do all right!!

Good luck!

[Andy Le Blanc]

You need to gather enough capital investment together to afford
a minimum order through a sourcing agent in China
The firm will handle the manufacturing, parts procurement etc....
The more money you can find thats not yours the better.
And you need to look closely at which markets you think you can afford to sell it in.
The market economics, in the U.S. are none too good. Find a growth market

If your fact finding, look for a firms that already have done this with musical merchandise.

[vibratoking]

I go through my friend (WWW.texasdragon.com) for custom cabs usually. Can't beat $75 for a 13 birch ply head cab with duratex coating, hardware and handle.

I went to that website.

Quote from TD:
4X12 Cabs Start AT 529.00 + Shipping
2X12 Cabs start at 329.00 + Shipping

That's a long way from $75.