Lindley Tone-Homing In on #8

[David Root]

Maybe HAD put him up to it!

On the Bassman iron this would be a natural assumption, given when these amps were built. However, if that be the case it begs a question about speakers, since a standard bassman OT is 2 ohms only. What speaker cabs were these amps used with (I assume std. Fender 2x12 Bassman cabs.)? Did HAD make anything specifically for them?

For example, If I wanted to try my hand at one of these amps I would need a 2 ohm speaker if I wanted to use a 1x12 cabinet. Obviously a 2X12 is no problem but is a lot less portable.

Truth in Advertizing Dept.---This is a self serving question!

I have a custom built BF Princeton Reverb cabinet that was built for a 12" speaker and is 11" deep (2" over size). I am wondering if I could build this amp in the Mojotone knockoff steel BFPR chassis I have (I think so)and fit it with a suitable speaker (not so sure of that) without any physical interferences......? weber has some 2 ohm 12" but unfortunately not the Michigan 12.

[philmanatee]

Bassman iron would be 4 ohm. Phil

[David Root]

Duh! I was thinking of tweed Bassman! Never mind..... It's been a long day. Then I could use a standard Michigan 12.

[Pete]

Bassman, head (4 ohms) not tweed.

... it begs a question about speakers, since a standard bassman OT is 2 ohms only. What speaker cabs were these amps used with (I assume std. Fender 2x12 Bassman cabs.)?
For example, If I wanted to try my hand at one of these amps I would need a 2 ohm speaker if I wanted to use a 1x12 cabinet.

[ampcrack]

Hi Max,

I read one of your comments here:

These "first generation" ODS are indeed the first "production" ODS style amps. Here the ODS series # system starts. #1 (combo) is still with Alexander. Before these he made some prototypes with a three step switch for the ODS (Off, Explosion 1, Explosion 2) He called these proto's "Overdrive Deluxe". Brandon posted some pics.

I thought HAD's history was:

1. Repairing and customizing and completely rebuilding amps, like the Overdrive Deluxe.

2. His first own amp-designs: The Explosion.

3. The Overdrive Special

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

John

[Max]

Hi Max,

I read one of your comments here:

These "first generation" ODS are indeed the first "production" ODS style amps. Here the ODS series # system starts. #1 (combo) is still with Alexander. Before these he made some prototypes with a three step switch for the ODS (Off, Explosion 1, Explosion 2) He called these proto's "Overdrive Deluxe". Brandon posted some pics.

I thought HAD's history was:

1. Repairing and customizing and completely rebuilding amps, like the Overdrive Deluxe.

2. His first own amp-designs: The Explosion.

3. The Overdrive Special

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

John

Here you find one of the interviews ("Articles"):

http://www.roblivesey.com/dumble/

It was published in "Guitar Player".

Some quotes:

"Amp Wizard Howard Dumble"
by Dan Forte

1.
I started making small pocket radios from scratch for the kids in school for $5.00 a pop.

2.
I was a junior in high school, and this guy named Jack smith came over and wanted me to build a piece of equipment for the junior baseball association. He said that he had access to a "mountain of parts"--I said OK! We went down to this big warehouse, and there were heaps of parts, so we gleaned as many as we could--all free. We built this huge 200-watt power amplifier so they could announce to nine baseball diamonds. As I understand it, it still works today.

3.
Then, Jack and I made some Dual showman-type amps, although we couldn't get Fender transformers--they were very tight about what they'd send you--so we used David Hafler transformers, which made the amp sound quite extraordinary.

Did your early amps have certain qualities lacking in commercially available amps of that period?

Yes, I definitely made sure they had more frequency bandwidth. One thing I noticed about the early guitar amps was that they were real limited, especially in the lower end. But you have to be careful to make sure you still keep the proper midrange and treble response. I found that out early on. You can't build a hi-fi circuit and expect it to be a good guitar amp--it just doesn't work out. You need a whole different response curve. But I did notice that if I put a little more low-end into the preamp circuitry, it was much more tasteful and fun to play.

4.
I was an 18-year-old kid in school in Bakersfield, and I went to see Semie Moseley, who was the only person I had access to there. I walked in and just bold-faced said, "I've got something that sounds like nothing else. You better hear it." And it flipped him out; he said, "This is the best thing I've ever heard." He offered to go in with me to build 10 amplifiers. He bought the parts and paid me $90.00 a week--for about four weeks, and then I had to work for free. But I still got to build 10 amplifiers on a production basis when I was only a kid. They were called Mosrite amps, but they were my design. Actually, I built 11, so I still have the original one I built. The Ventures played through them and were really interested, but it was a little too much rock for them. They wanted me to go into business with them, but I decided against it, and went back to playing in studios and in rock bands.

5.
I actually started making a series of amplifiers called the Dumbleland in about '66, and I still make them. That was the forerunner of the Steel-String Singer. I didn't change a whole lot about that; it was a design way ahead of its time. It was too much power and too silky clean for people. It's perfect for Stevie Ray, though. He has a hard time playing an Overdrive.

6.
In fact, my old Fender mods I did in the late '60s were exactly the same as the schematics a lot of the later high-gain amplifiers always used.

7.
What changes did the Explosion (Max: Explosion = Overdive Deluxe like - e. g. - the one on the pic Brandon posted here some time ago) undergo before it became the Overdrive Special (Max: first generation ODS, like #1, #2, #4, #8 )?

The active circuitry changed quite a bit, and the tone circuitry did also. But the concept of processing the signal post preamp stayed the same. Most other high-gain amplifiers use a pre-preamp gain boost, but I broke away from that quite early, in the late '60s. I found that trying to build the signal up before the preamp had a tendency to really overload the preamp, and you got nonharmonic tones and a very unmusical end result. Plus, you ran into a lot of vacuum-tube problems with harmonic's. So, what I wanted to do was get all that wonderful oomph and beautiful sustain and harmonic richness without the electronic troubles.

Cheers

Max

[ampcrack]

Hi Max,

thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I know that and other interviews with HAD.

But to my knowledge the "Overdrive Deluxe" was a redone and custom made Fender amp.
And it was made long before the "Explosion" model.

The "Explosion" was his first own "Dumble" model, before he finally started
making the Overdrive Special.

By the way, some of this information and pictures of the "Explosion" model
I saw in a book about Dumble amps which belongs to a friend of mine.

Anyway, thanks again!

John

[Max]

Hi Max,

thanks for the reply.

Yeah, I know that and other interviews with HAD.

But to my knowledge the "Overdrive Deluxe" was a redone and custom made Fender amp.
And it was made long before the "Explosion" model.

The "Explosion" was his first own "Dumble" model, before he finally started
making the Overdrive Special.

By the way, some of this information and pictures of the "Explosion" model
I saw in a book about Dumble amps which belongs to a friend of mine.

Anyway, thanks again!

John

As far as I know "in about 66" (Dumbleland) was before "the late '60s" (Explosion).

The "Overdrive Deluxe" (pic: http://www.roblivesey.com/dumble/) is not a "redone and custom made Fender amp", but more or less a custom made "Explosion" kind of amp with the typical three step OD switch of the Explosion. It was made in '75 (it is dated by Dumble), and not "made long before the "Explosion" model" but only a short time before the first generation ODS appeared. As there is no pic of an Explosion on Rob's page, I pointed at this "OD Deluxe" pic as its kind of OD circuit is in many aspects technically very similar to an Explosion.

I just tell what I know. Of course it can be, that you have better sources. No problem with me.

But if it was indeed in this book, where you found all these - as far as I know - wrong infos, I would doubt, that it is a valuable source.

Cheers

Max

[ampcrack]

Hi Max,

thanks again for your reply.

Sorry, probably my fault, but you must have missunderstood me with 2 things:

1. If you look at the front panel and chassis of that Overdrive Deluxe,
you can see that it was a Fender amp. And that's why I said, redone and customized.
So: rebuilt and customized by HAD to be whatever, but surely not "THE" Explosion model.

2. I didn't say "I found all this information" I said I just found "some of this information" in that book.
Please don't twist my words.

And just because there is no pic of an "Explosion" on Rob's Homepage site, doesn't mean that they do not exist.

And I guess you of all of us here, should know best that HAD made alot of other things on the side. And also used
whatever he thought was best for this or that amp at the time.

I'll see if I can get permission to place a pic of the explosion model here.

John

[angelodp]

Ry Cooder's amp.... is that tremolo based on the AB763?

[Max]

@ampcrack:

John,

everyone here can read the "Guitar Player" interview as found on Rob Livesey's page: http://www.roblivesey.com/dumble/.

And everyone here can look at the pictures of the "Overdrive Deluxe" as found in the "Parent Directory" of the same page under the pics of the ODS 150W #121 and above the pics of the Dumblelator.

And if you like to call this "Overdrive Deluxe" a

"redone and custom made Fender amp",

please feel free to do so. I don't see a need to argue with you, what words are best suited to describe this "Overdrive Deluxe".

And if you read another date on the back of this "Overdrive Deluxe" than "75", no problem with me.

And if you don't think its OD circuit is similar to the OD circuit of an "Explosion", no problem with me too.

And if, after reading this interview and looking at these pics you still think, that this

"Overdrive Deluxe".... was made long before the "Explosion" model",

I really don't mind.

And if, after doing so, you still think, that

"the "Explosion" was his first own "Dumble" model"

and not the Dumbleland, please feel free to do so.

And if you like this book, please feel free to do so too.

And if you like to post a pic of an "Explosion", this would be great, and it would be very interesting to see, if there is really the model name "Explosion" written on it. I hope you can get the permission.

And if you ask for the permission, could you please ask too, if you can quote some short passage from this book, where Dumble himself calls this amp "the Explosion model"? Thank you in advance.

Have a great weekend

Max

[dr. who]

Ry Cooder's amp.... is that tremolo based on the AB763?

Funk said that the trem he's seen in Dumbles has been almost exactly like the AB763...I assume yes

[angelodp]

Ok, so going on a quote from Funk where he mentions that the AB763 was the foundation of the OD circuit, is it likely that some Tremolux chassis were used as donors in the early evolution on the ODS.

How many ODS units are known to have trem.

[Max]

How many ODS units are known to have trem.

Only the ODS 150W model has trem.

Then there is the "Borderline Special" and the "Silver Alligator Pentode Amp".

And as far as I still remember correctly what Henry once told me, the SSS #1 has "true frequency vibrato".

As far as I know Alexander still "mods" or "rebuilds" (however you like to call it) Fender amps, and if they have trem before the mod, in most cases they still have it after the mod, and if so, it is of a "deep and very slow to freaking out" kind I've never met in a Fender up to now.

As all Dumble amps with trem I know myself did not have or specify a 12AT7 as oscillator-tube and had a trem, that could be adjusted way slower and deeper than the usual Fender trem but to the same or even more high speed, I doubt, that he just cloned the usual Fender trem-circuit.

But perhaps Gil Ayan can tell you what kind of circuit he found in the "Borderline Special".

Cheers

Max

[heisthl]

Yeah, Tremolo, especially photo resistor tremolo is a tone killer. I know some of the brown faces had an tremolo on V1 that was unique sounding but even those played with the tone. The tube oscillator type on the output grids does not seem to affect tone. My favorite is the Fender custom shop circuit below - left side is the footswitch right side goes to the bias point in the PI