Which Bluesmaster Should I Build?

[erwin_ve]

Any love for the CDE DMT and DME caps? I use the latter when things get thought or when wiring feedback networks or a deep switch. Small, convenient, but not sure if they sound very different from e.g. a 6PS in the same application.

I did a comparison with 6PS, MPP en CDE DME as coupling caps in a Dumblelator.

6PS very big lows mids and very smooth highs
MPP; tight bass, scooped mids, very much top end.
CDE DME; Tight bass, scooped mids, more top compared to the 6PS but less top end compared to the MPP. Is also a lot smoother on the top end.

I often use CDE DME in tonestack or as a coupling cap when lowmid is getting mushy.
MPP is great as PI caps, they get smoother when more signal is applied.

[dorrisant]

Any love for the CDE DMT and DME caps? I use the latter when things get thought or when wiring feedback networks or a deep switch. Small, convenient, but not sure if they sound very different from e.g. a 6PS in the same application.

I did a comparison with 6PS, MPP en CDE DME as coupling caps in a Dumblelator.

6PS very big lows mids and very smooth highs
MPP; tight bass, scooped mids, very much top end.
CDE DME; Tight bass, scooped mids, more top compared to the 6PS but less top end compared to the MPP. Is also a lot smoother on the top end.

I often use CDE DME in tonestack or as a coupling cap when lowmid is getting mushy.
MPP is great as PI caps, they get smoother when more signal is applied.

That is fantastic reporting!!

[rootz]

Great info Edwin! Will have a look for those DME's in the tone stack. Do you use them everywhere in the stack, or just the 10n/47n one to the mid pot?

Let's also not count out the Nichicon QXK(-ZH). Those are used in the Ojai I think. Topic about the Ojai here. Great sounding amp, with non traditional components. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19120

[erwin_ve]

Great info Edwin! Will have a look for those DME's in the tone stack. Do you use them everywhere in the stack, or just the 10n/47n one to the mid pot?

Let's also not count out the Nichicon QXK(-ZH). Those are used in the Ojai I think. Topic about the Ojai here. Great sounding amp, with non traditional components. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=19120

Rootz,

Depends on the amp and my mood I've done all 6ps amps with just the mid cap DME. But also with bass and mid cap DME and inverting PI side.

FWIW The topic you refer to as OJAI isnt a OJAI. The OJAI is Bludo's take on #102, the HRM in the topic is something else.
Thanks for the headsup on the NIchicon, gotta try them.

Erwin

[Mark]

Any love for the CDE DMT and DME caps? I use the latter when things get thought or when wiring feedback networks or a deep switch. Small, convenient, but not sure if they sound very different from e.g. a 6PS in the same application.

I did a comparison with 6PS, MPP en CDE DME as coupling caps in a Dumblelator.

6PS very big lows mids and very smooth highs
MPP; tight bass, scooped mids, very much top end.
CDE DME; Tight bass, scooped mids, more top compared to the 6PS but less top end compared to the MPP. Is also a lot smoother on the top end.

I often use CDE DME in tonestack or as a coupling cap when lowmid is getting mushy.
MPP is great as PI caps, they get smoother when more signal is applied.

How was the testing carried out did you record the results for comparison?

[dorrisant]

I was just trying to verify the board mount hole dimensions and I can't get the file I have here to import into Corel... Says that it is corrupted on two computers, although I can open it with Acrobat on both. Does anyone else have a copy that isn't corrupted?

I'm referring to the one posted here by Tom... 4th post down. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=23062

[alkuz1961]

dorrisant, what version of Corel are you using? I saved the file for the old version 12. Let me know if you need any additional information.

[erwin_ve]

Any love for the CDE DMT and DME caps? I use the latter when things get thought or when wiring feedback networks or a deep switch. Small, convenient, but not sure if they sound very different from e.g. a 6PS in the same application.

I did a comparison with 6PS, MPP en CDE DME as coupling caps in a Dumblelator.

6PS very big lows mids and very smooth highs
MPP; tight bass, scooped mids, very much top end.
CDE DME; Tight bass, scooped mids, more top compared to the 6PS but less top end compared to the MPP. Is also a lot smoother on the top end.

I often use CDE DME in tonestack or as a coupling cap when lowmid is getting mushy.
MPP is great as PI caps, they get smoother when more signal is applied.

How was the testing carried out did you record the results for comparison?

This was 10-12yrs ago:
I had 1 dumblelator with 6PS caps as reference.
Then build 3 dumblelators with the 6ps, mpp and dme caps.
The 6ps versions sound exactly the same to me.
Although nice as comparison, the scientific value is zero because of the amount of variables.
However the outcome in different builds has been consistent to my ears using these caps.
And yes I recorded them with a cheap ass condenser mic.
Erwin

[rootz]

The music industry in general and amp building to be more specific doesn’t exactly work by scientific laws. I’d love to see scientific comparisons of different resistor and cap types in Dumble style amps. Is NOS really worth it? Do transformers really matter that much to the Dumble sound? I heard a output transformer comparison for a Marshall 1974 (18 Watter) many years ago. Same amp and recording setup, just different output transformers. The differences were big, but of course the whole output stage was pushed into saturation. That was about the most scientific approach I have seen with regards to amp building.

On the other hand I still think that Bludo I mentioned sounds great on stage. Sure, no sophisticated way of recording. It just tells me you can build a great sounding amp with the parts Bludo chose.

[talbany]

The music industry in general and amp building to be more specific doesn’t exactly work by scientific laws. I’d love to see scientific comparisons of different resistor and cap types in Dumble style amps. Is NOS really worth it? Do transformers really matter that much to the Dumble sound? I heard a output transformer comparison for a Marshall 1974 (18 Watter) many years ago. Same amp and recording setup, just different output transformers. The differences were big, but of course the whole output stage was pushed into saturation. That was about the most scientific approach I have seen with regards to amp building.

On the other hand I still think that Bludo I mentioned sounds great on stage. Sure, no sophisticated way of recording. It just tells me you can build a great sounding amp with the parts Bludo chose.

Yeah you and everyone else on the Garage.

On the other hand I still think that Bludo I mentioned sounds great on stage. Sure, no sophisticated way of recording. It just tells me you can build a great sounding amp with the parts Bludo chose.

Depends? Just about anyone with some soldering skills a little patience hard work some study coupled with the info posted here can build (what they think is) a "Great" sounding amp with new parts. This is a completely different approach than attempting to recreate the sound of an instrument that already exists!
This becomes an even bigger challenge when trying to replicate "exactly" the sound and performance aspects of any 1 amplifier built by HAD, Especially one that is 40 and 50 years old. The variables become too great and the challenge becomes simply insurmountable.
I've heard Dumble style amps built by a few that do sound great (in the hands of a good player) but not many that reminds me of the last Dumble amp that I actually got to play and hear or the professionally recorded real deal Dumbles..I've also built and heard some replicas that sound absolutely nothing like an original ODS.
I shoot for? if it reminds me of or has the personality of a particular ODS sound I am chasing, then I am happy. If this takes NOS to get there and close as possible is the goal then go NOS and seasoned iron.
If chasing a certain sound is not the goal or you prefer the sound of some new stock parts (think it sounds 'Great") and just want the features of an ODS style amp then I would not bother hunting down NOS Parts!!!

BTW.If you cannot tell the difference between polypropylene and a polyester cap or a Difilm 220? get your ears checked

Tony

[rootz]

Lol, no need to get my ears checked again. I already know they are shitty. That’s why I have hearing aids

But believe me, I might not be able to split all the hears like someone with good ears can, but can still judge the character of an amp. Or I might not 100%. Can’t compare my ears or what sounds good to me to good ears and what sounds good to another.

By the way, I never heard a direct comparison between 6PS and 715 or 716. Tried the latter in a soldano supercharger clone and didn’t care for the sound. If you know of a direct comparison, please share. Would love to hear that.

Now for cloning: clone! Use the same parts from the right era. That is what cloning is about (really heating a dead horse here ).

I admit without blinking I’m not cloning and that great sound is highly subjective. That being said, my latest build has got the lead dress correct, genuine 6PS caps, RN65 plate resistors (though not vintage). Wish I had a real Dumble to compare and some new ears. Both are (sadly) a mere daydream though.

[talbany]

Lol, no need to get my ears checked again. I already know they are shitty. That’s why I have hearing aids

But believe me, I might not be able to split all the hears like someone with good ears can, but can still judge the character of an amp. Or I might not 100%. Can’t compare my ears or what sounds good to me to good ears and what sounds good to another.

By the way, I never heard a direct comparison between 6PS and 715 or 716. Tried the latter in a soldano supercharger clone and didn’t care for the sound. If you know of a direct comparison, please share. Would love to hear that.

Now for cloning: clone! Use the same parts from the right era. That is what cloning is about (really heating a dead horse here ).

I admit without blinking I’m not cloning and that great sound is highly subjective. That being said, my latest build has got the lead dress correct, genuine 6PS caps, RN65 plate resistors (though not vintage). Wish I had a real Dumble to compare and some new ears. Both are (sadly) a mere daydream though.

Sure! I look at it much like the way a master chief would The layouts and schematics are the recipe and the parts selection are the ingredients. If you want to copy someone else's you have to pay attention to both. If you are creating your own version you only really need the recipe.

The 715/716 caps are a bright cap w/ an open sound and big round lows. Some complain they are too bright and in some amps have a brittle edge to them. They do smooth out over time though. Dumble has been known to use them in his more aggressive amps like the blues masters and Ripper amps to give them a bit of an edge (Like some older Marshall's). He also uses them as a mid-cap to push forward and brighten up the mids.
If you do some searches here there are plenty of other examples of other builders opinions on cap flavors~
Please don't ask about resistors
BTW. You probably can hear better than me I need a hearing aid

Tony

[dorrisant]

dorrisant, what version of Corel are you using? I saved the file for the old version 12. Let me know if you need any additional information.

That is perfect! Thank you sir!

Corel X6 btw...

Btw... I have access to some great test equipment and could run some very scientific tests. HP sweep generator and network analyzer... Soft Plot software would give some great plots for comparison on an individual component basis...
Maybe run some guitar tracks of various aggression through a test amp (circuit ?) at various levels. Possibly using voltage dividers on switches in place of pots to test at repeatable levels. Could it be as simple as sampling the signal at a specific test point?
I'm pretty sure I could pull it off.

Now, send me your NOS caps and resistors for the analysis!

But seriously, something like this could be done. I have all of the equipment here or on loan from work. I could burn everything in with my attenuator first. I've been wanting to buy a NOS set of everything from Jelle, if he still has any. Maybe it would be a great time to run some tests. Anyone have any interest in this?

[talbany]

dorrisant, what version of Corel are you using? I saved the file for the old version 12. Let me know if you need any additional information.

That is perfect! Thank you sir!

Corel X6 btw...

Btw... I have access to some great test equipment and could run some very scientific tests. HP sweep generator and network analyzer... Soft Plot software would give some great plots for comparison on an individual component basis...
Maybe run some guitar tracks of various aggression through a test amp (circuit ?) at various levels. Possibly using voltage dividers on switches in place of pots to test at repeatable levels. Could it be as simple as sampling the signal at a specific test point?
I'm pretty sure I could pull it off.


Tony

Now, send me your NOS caps and resistors for the analysis!

But seriously, something like this could be done. I have all of the equipment here or on loan from work. I could burn everything in with my attenuator first. I've been wanting to buy a NOS set of everything from Jelle, if he still has any. Maybe it would be a great time to run some tests. Anyone have any interest in this?

Thanks
But we have already run all the tests here and have determined there is no difference in sound between NOS and New parts!

[dorrisant]

Back to the original topic, here is a set of boards I cut today...

They are cut from B-stock, so please don't give me too much grief over it. It is my amp that I'm building.