Big rehash - Strat into Dumble - what really works

[67plexi]

I use a tube tester on a 12AX7 I want 3,2mA / 3,2mA minimum each section.
Sometimes I have been lucky to obtain 3,6mA / 3,6mA that is rare and worth every penny.

[Zippy]

I have two Strats and both are good sounding guitars. They both sound great plugged into many different amps.

My Strats don't sound bad through the Damp, just no magic like with HB guitars.


Sigh... I hope that's taken with the humor with which it is intended.

No malice intended. I've just seen a lot of Strats that weren't set up as well as they could be - and many more that would never be great guitars.

G'luck with your quest!

[aflynt]

Here's one hypothesis:

Strats are generally very diffused sounding instruments with lots of phase cancellations coming from the body shape, pickups and tremolo springs and floating bridge. The Skyliner TS, other circuitry in the ODS and speaker system sculpts the frequency curve in such a way as to radically boost and cut certain frequency bands to achieve it's signature sound. This results in a sort of 'frequency russian roulette' where the Strat often by chance doesn't fare well due to the resultant tailored frequency response attenuating and accentuating unpleasing nodes. Purer sounding instruments with less complex waveforms like Teles and Les Pauls generally fare better since there is less of a likelihood of the "wrong" frequencies being emphasized or deemphasized. More solid sounding body woods like Alder and Mahogany also fare better than things like Swamp-Ash.

In my experiments with trying to get my Hollow Swamp Ash Anderson sounding decent with my #102 clones I found that loading the pickups more by lowering the pot values to 250k got the guitar sounding better. The loading changed the resonant peak of the instrument. Using the FET input, in theory would also change the resonant peak of the instrument in contrast to the normal input. Perhaps this shifting of guitar response up or down puts the instrument 'in the zone' per-se with regards to the frequencies shaped by the amplifier.

In regards to Strats, I've found that mine sounds great through the "D-Style" amps I've played it through. It's less of a diffused, stratty sounding guitar, though, and much more "up front" sounding due to the following:

1. Resonant Alder body with strong fundamental ring right around the "G" on the low "E" string.
2. Heavy strings and high action.
3. Higher output Lollar Special pickups with more midrange.
4. 5 springs in the Callaham Trem tightened all the way up to the body.
5. Passive mid-boost control that also variably changes the resonant peak of the pickups.
6. 250k pots with a .1uF tone cap wired to all pickup combinations.

Or, on the other hand, maybe I'm just taking out of my a$$ and have no idea what's really going on. If this hypothesis is actually correct, then I probably subconsciously stole the theory from somebody smarter than me.

-Aaron

[CHIP]

Some great posts here. A lot of different ways to approach this situation.
Thanks!

[blinddog]

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... ht=clapton

Just to offer this up. Some good discussion here, but yes clapton isn't using what i would call a standard strat and some people aren't crazy about his tones recently. And I don't think he has been using what I would consider clean tone in awhile, but the OD seems good to me and others.

Good Luck on your quest for this grail!
Blinddog

[vibratoking]

A quick update on this. I plugged strat into 65 SR to get a baseliine of what that sounds like. One of the best cleans, when setup right, that I know of. I also plugged into my 71 Twin. The SR has alot of meat and sweet chime that is not cluttered by bass frequencies. The Twin has similar cleans in many ways. Then I plugged into the Dclone. What I heard, but what I forgot, is how much more bass and low mids there are in the Dclone. It was a reminder of my poor musical memory. This is what I was listening for and expecting since the spice sims I ran showed alot of bass and low mids through the clean Skyliner stage. I decided to experiment with the Skykliner tonestack putting up to 0.08uF in the mid cap spot and putting the slope resistor on a 1Meg pot. The combination of 0.08uF and somewhere around 200k to 300k slope resistance starts to move towards Fender type cleans. Quite a bit of overall output is lost as the slope resistance is increased. This is all I could accomplish on today's lunch hour. I am feeling like clean strat bass tones are congested and masked by all the extra bass and low mid content of the Dstyle amp. I think the bass tones of the strat are the biggest problem. I am thinking the Ck on V1a and b might also be a way to get rid of the bass and low mid congestion. BTW, I don't think the bass and low mid character is as much a signature for clean sounds with my HB guitars, think LP. I think that's why HB guitars don't bother me as much.

I am thinking of a modified strat switch setup. I don't want to leave a pot in the slope position. It has been suggested to increase the mid cap and reduce the slope resistance, but I think I want to increase the mid cap even more, to 0.08uF or so, and increase the slope resistance as I mentioned above.

EDIT: Also, I adjusted the OD trimmer for more gain, as suggested by many, and I am liking what I hear. It is apparent that I will want to tweak the OD gain for SCs vs HBs so I'll probably install a pot in the extra speaker out hole.

Before anyone else says it, I know all these changes move me away from the original design. My answer it two-fold:
1. my amp needs the change
2. I don't care.

More to come...

[sepulchre]

When you say 'OD gain pot' are talking about the "trigger" trimmer?

Do you think these changes will take away from the tone when using a HB?

[vibratoking]

Yes, OD trim. I edited above.

Do you think these changes will take away from the tone when using a HB?

I am sure they will change the HB character. My goal is to make things switchable or accessable via pots so that I can easily move between HBs and SCs...while having the tone I prefer with each.

[Aaron]

Have you thought about increasing the voltages on V1 and V2.
The Fenders you mentioned have 20-30% more voltages on V1.
Doesn't higher voltage = cleaner sound

[vibratoking]

Have you thought about increasing the voltages on V1 and V2.
The Fenders you mentioned have 20-30% more voltages on V1.
Doesn't higher voltage = cleaner sound

I have thought about increasing the voltages, but I don't think that will have much effect on the low and low mid frequency response that I am currently interested in. Raising the voltage will result in more output from each stage and less harmonic distortion, but those are not my immediate target at this point.

[tag101]

A quick update on this. I plugged strat into 65 SR to get a baseliine of what that sounds like. One of the best cleans, when setup right, that I know of.

I totally agree! I have a SRRI now that I love as much as my old 65-66. Not just with a Strat though, flat out one of the best clean tones ever IMO.

Then I plugged into the Dclone. What I heard, but what I forgot, is how much more bass and low mids there are in the Dclone.

.

This is odd. All of my D style amps, as well as my Dumble, and all the Dumbles I have played alongside fenders, have had (at least to the ear) far less bottom end than the fenders. (Agree more lower mids!) The fenders always seem to have more bottom, and much more high end. Dumble seemed to have cut the lows and ultra highs. I think this is why its hard to get great overdriven tones with that type of clean sound. The lows get farty, and the highs get buzzy or fizzy when gain is added. At least thats the problems I have. Its also the same reason I can never seem to get great cleans with a Dumble. Not enough lows, or silky chimey highs.

[talbany]

Have you thought about increasing the voltages on V1 and V2.
The Fenders you mentioned have 20-30% more voltages on V1.
Doesn't higher voltage = cleaner sound

I have thought about increasing the voltages, but I don't think that will have much effect on the low and low mid frequency response that I am currently interested in. Raising the voltage will result in more output from each stage and less harmonic distortion, but those are not my immediate target at this point.

Here is something that will help with the low mid response..One of the reasons why some people here like 123 (built for Strat) and 124 (also has 10uf bypass on OD) is due to the to the increased trimmer 350K and 250k Level pot's..keep in mind it will thicken the humbuckers too

There I gave away my Secret..

This is odd. All of my D style amps, as well as my Dumble, and all the Dumbles I have played alongside fenders, have had (at least to the ear) far less bottom end than the fenders. (Agree more lower mids!) The fenders always seem to have more bottom, and much more high end. Dumble seemed to have cut the lows and ultra highs. I think this is why its hard to get great overdriven tones with that type of clean sound. The lows get farty, and the highs get buzzy or fizzy when gain is added. At least thats the problems I have. Its also the same reason I can never seem to get great cleans with a Dumble. Not enough lows, or silky chimey highs.

Not that Odd
High plates won't give you that sparkle that the low plates give you and the Fenders use 25uf Bypass caps the reason for being a bit bassier...For me there is plenty of low end to be had with a high plate Skyliner??..I can never get mine past 3 without it getting bass heavy (not boomey like some Fenders) using old 30% taper CTS pots..Also with a Strat you have to run push the output section up to get rid of some of the buzz and thicken and smooth out the tone..Humbuckers you don't have to run up as high...These amps were designed and voiced at higher (gig) volumes..Not livingrooms
Tony

[vibratoking]

There I gave away my Secret.. Shocked

Tony, I knew if I stood on this street corner long enough you would throw some change at me.

[talbany]

There I gave away my Secret.. Shocked

Tony, I knew if I stood on this street corner long enough you would throw some change at me.

Just don't tell anyone.. ..It just hit me today!!
I think you will like these changes!!

Good Luck!!

T

[stelligan]

Simple and external fix that has almost always worked for me with a Strat is: Clean boost pedal in front - Keeley Katana(FET based) or Compressor with compression very low and output goosed up a bit. Just hits the front of the amp with a little more oomph. Guys with an FET input probably achieve the same kind of benefit.

Tony's recommendation has been written down for further exploration...