418P capacitors???

[brentm]

I just purchased my Orange Drops from AES. I've had nothing but great shopping experiences with these guys!!!

But, I was a little puzzled when the 6PS-S50 caps showed up as SBE418P 503K600V - the values are the same and when I contacted AES, they said this...

"I just spoke with our product manager and he said that the 418P are the same things as the PS. The manufacturer had them labeled this way and asked if we wanted some labeled this way instead of waiting for them to manufacture more. The parts you currently have in your possession are the correct part, any replacements we send would be the same as what you have."

So I asked if they were mislabeled 6PS caps and he responded.

"It is the same capacitor. The manufacturer decided to label that batch differently. They will work for what you need them to."

It's hard to tell much of anything from the datasheets on these.

So my question is, do you think it's OK to move forward with sourcing my parts, or should I go and find the 6PS-S50 caps??? I'd hate to get down the road and wonder if these caps didn't fit the bill in a respectable clone.

[Structo]

This was brought up recently.

If you compare specs they are very similar and if I had to say which was better, the 418P seems a bit more rugged because it can take up to 125C.

Same construction, polyester and foil.

http://orangedrop.sbelectronics.com/product_specs.html

[diagrammatiks]

they are probably the exact same part.

although they are made by sbe now.

[SoundPerf]

I don't know if this is of any help, but I used 225P's in my Dlator clone and it performs and sounds great.

[jelle]

Nothing to worry about, IMHO. Will produce a great sounding amp.

[Structo]

OK, from the horses mouth.
This cap question bugged me enough to write to the Design department at SBE and ask them about the
difference between the 6PS and 418P caps and this was his reply.

<<< The 418P and PS series 600VDC and lower are all EXACTLY the same thing [film, foil, size, everything except the stamp]!
Some of the higher voltage PS series are the same as the 715P polypropylene
parts.
But I doubt those voltages would be of use to you.

The PS series is a relic from the days when vacuum tube TV’s were repaired by every town’s TV service guys.
It was conceived as a replacement capacitor line that was sold via TV repair parts distributors,
an entirely different sales channel than the OEM distribution intended for new product build.

The line faded out pretty much before Sprague Electric abandoned the plant here in Barre in 1985.

BUT, they were the same 418P parts, so we kept making them when there was demand.

There were some products where the “PS series” inadvertently got designed in, and are still ordered occasionally in OEM qty. from SBE.
Problem being, we’ve had to increase our min order size, and the volume isn’t there on the PS series anymore….
We’d really like to drop the line entirely and get rid of the stamps.

BTW, thicker polyester film as used in these parts is becoming very tough to obtain lately.

The issue is that demand for such thick polyester capacitor film has dropped dramatically.
Most capacitors for high voltage applications are made with Polypropylene film, it has much lower losses, and they are not
temperature and frequency dependent as is polyester.
PP does not absorb moisture and change capacitance value as does polyester.

Above said, within our ability to do so at a profit, we will make whatever parts are in demand.

I hope the above was of some use.

And I do respect that old caps and guitar pickups can get together in nearly impossible to model ways that can sound musical,
and that this behavior is very difficult to measure and more difficult to explain.


********************** On the FUN side of things:

I’ve played lead guitar and keys in bands since late 1965… still do. Bet we could share a few beers and have a
helluva good time.
I’ve built and modified amps as well.
Although I like transistor amps and old JBL speakers, I’ve heard some fine sounding tube amps, too. I still have a blackface

Deluxe Rev. and a Princeton Reverb both from 1964. [And so modded they’re probably worth not much except to me. I’m fine with that!]

Cheers!
Terry
>>>

That is very cool that people involved with manufacturing these components that we use are into guitar and amps, allbeit SS amps in his case.

I hope this clears up any confusion about the two different named cap lines.

[SoundPerf]

Hey now, that was some good information. Thanks, Tom!

[brentm]

Ah, very cool!!!!

Thanks Tom, for finding out the straight dope on that question!! Very interesting background information on those caps!!!

[diagrammatiks]

i love it.

poly film is kinda hard to source because it is exceptionally terrible compared to other things...but we understand that they are some sort of elvish magic and will gladly sell them to you as long as you buy them.

hooray!

love that guy.

[brentm]

i love it.

poly film is kinda hard to source because it is exceptionally terrible compared to other things...but we understand that they are some sort of elvish magic and will gladly sell them to you as long as you buy them.

hooray!

love that guy.

Hehe. I didn't read it quite the same as you, but I do like the fact that they'll try to meet demand if there is some profit margin in there for them. I'm sure that capacitors are a pretty small slice of the polyester film industry. And it's likely imported... Just running on a few assumptions.

I did like his quote about the "magic" that is difficult to model. The only unfortunate thing for me is that knowing the 418P's are the same stuff is that it doesn't make sourcing parts any easier

[Structo]

I made this information into a Sticky Post at the top of the this page.

[glasman]

Well lets hope that SBE never decides to slip in PP within the production of the lower voltage PS, 225P and 418P series caps.

Because a 100% PP 715 or 716 amp sounds like crap.....

It will be easy to spot, the Q factor (or 1/dissipation) of polyster is about 1/10 that of polyprop.

Think I will order in some 418's to do some electrical testing and live circuit measurements, and just see if they "really are the same".

[Max]

Well lets hope that SBE never decides to slip in PP within the production of the lower voltage PS, 225P and 418P series caps.

If a lesson can be learned from guys like Adrian Newey, Eddy Nakamichi, Emmett Chapman, Jimmy D'Aquisto and Alexander Dumble (I named just these few, because they just came to my mind when writing this), IMO it's the lesson, that the "secrets" of a great musical instrument, a fast racing car or a pleasing tone out of something like a compact cassette isn't brazilian rosewood and polyester caps etc., but - in the end - the creative intelligence and intuition of us humans.

So (IMO) let's hope, that the creative intelligence of us humans - or at least the one of some of us that can teach and help others - will be sufficient to find out how to build great guitars without brazilian rosewood, and great guitar amps without 418P caps and even without tubes at all.

Maybe these will sound different from an ES 335 plugged into #102, like some of the guitar tracks on ZZ Tops's "Mescalero" e.g.: http://www.teuffel.com/english/artists/artists.htm
http://www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/I ... itars.aspx

So what?

There have been days when musicians have been the driving force behind the developpement of new instruments with new and fresh voices - because they have been eager to create fresh music with these fresh voices. When the piano was borne AFAIK only few whined "Boohooo, these don't sound like a harpsichord". And when the modern guitar was borne AFAIK they haven't been too many complaints, that they don't sound like a lute: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY_g7H6DN68

"...listen to the colour of your dreams..." : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCXjEIQANes

Cheers,

Max

[martin manning]

An example of... well it's really an example of several things. You'll lke this, I think, Max! http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecaden ... -the-strad

Loved the Chapman stick, BTW!

[Colossal]

An example of... well it's really an example of several things. You'll lke this, I think, Max! http://www.npr.org/blogs/deceptivecaden ... -the-strad

Loved the Chapman stick, BTW!

Martin,

Great article! Of the two clips, I picked the Stradivari which I found interesting. That said, I like new guitars, metal film resistors, and polypropylene