building etiquette

[Rockwell666]

I follow a lot of new amp/pedal builders and I see so much hype generated on stuff that seems slapped together. some might call me jealous but I dunno. I might also be alittle OCD but does any one else feel this way or am I just an asshole? I spend a lot of time on straightening leads and cleaning up my solder joints and take pride in the interior aesthetics.

Take for example the following pedal:
https://reverb.com/item/5357672-blackha ... wired-fuzz
its a handwired fuzz pedal that makes me cringe when I look at the gut shots. the layout, the soldering it drives me crazy!!! not to mention on multiple occasions the knobs are crooked.

[telentubes]

I'm from the "neatness counts" school as well and really enjoy that aspect of building, but I don't think it makes an amp sound any better (providing the lead dress is reasonable). I'm moderately neat. Some folks take it to an extreme. Here is a pic of a friends Jim Kelly amp after he got it back from being "modified". You better be sitting down for this.

DSCN4028.JPG

[Rockwell666]

yeeeesh. I would consider myself moderately neat also. most "user's" don't appreciate that stuff I guess. and I mean if it sounds good,,,,,,

[fevzay]

You know...I'm a new builder (hobbyist mostly). I don't know which camp I'd be in, honestly. My Bassman build may look as bad as the Jim Kelly amp to some of you, but I was proud of it as my first amp. I'm very green admittedly, so I don't know everything I should about lead dress, grounding, etc.

To be honest, I don't consider myself to be OCD by any stretch about it. My first goal was to make an amp that worked #1, and sounds good #2. Time will tell. I'm more about function than anything, and consequently I am drawn to simpler amps. Thinking about wiring up a feature laden amp with 12 knobs has no appeal. I think I'll end up being neater because I like simple things.

Here's a shot of the amp I made. I can admit that it looks to be on the sloppy side, but I do hope to improve over time. As a side note, the amp sounds fantastic!

[pompeiisneaks]

Yeah but everyone has a learning curve fevzay, and even I still think mine are pretty shitty looking and I've made about 10 amps so far, I still notice improvements with each build. OTOH that pedal does look pretty sloppy.

I think the problem is that if people don't know it's that bad inside, and think it's 'great' because it sounds good, they'll buy them and then when the 200$ pedal dies due to cold solder joints or other messy workmanship they won't know why.

~Phil

[labb]

Take a look inside some of the old amps. Not very neat at all. Some you wonder how they ever worked.

[telentubes]

Case in point. That Jim Kelly amp sounds really really good.

[Gainzilla]

Take a look inside some of the old amps. Not very neat at all. Some you wonder how they ever worked.

Exactly. Some of the old amps that are coveted the most look like a total rats nest. Of course, they weren't generating the kind of distortion modern amps do, but still.

[R.G.]

Some thoughts about aesthetics:

If everything else is the same, it's better to be neat and tidy, both aesthetically and because it's easier to service.

Of course, everything else is never all the same. Aesthetics aside, neatness may or may not affect circuit performance; this is the legend of "tiny parasitic capacitances from wire to wire". The legend holds that bundled and parallel-routed wires can wildly affect sound. This is true - it can. But it's a little like "don't run with scissors". Don't parallel bundle your wires where you have a high voltage or high current signal next to your high impedance wires, notably grid-connection wires. Your amp can oscillate itself to death if you do this. The subtler forms are minor resonances at odd places in the audio range, and an odd "voice" for the amp.

Worse, since it's impossible to be equally and consistently messy, every amp will come out different, even if they have the same super cork-sniffing components, wires and connectors.

This is one area that PCB construction shines. Since all, every one, 100% of amps made with a PCB will have very nearly EXACTLY the same parasitics and so on, every PCB amp will come out about equally good or bad sounding, depending only on the quality of the DESIGN of the PCB, and then component quality, etc. You can still screw up a PCB design, and/or put in low quality parts, but you'll get consistency,.

And neatness.

There is a huge argument to be made for PCB construction in amps; however, they are not easy to hack and modify, and gets the juices going for every DIY amp builder who thinks they can rule the world by using unobtainium resistors and polishing the wires with Armor-All, or whatever. Boutique amp makers hate PCBs because they come up with their gems the same way the DIY builders do, and in general don't have the ability to turn around test PCBs easily and quickly, nor the volume to justify PCBs. Techs don't like PCB construction because frankly, most of the PCBs they've had to work on were designed by PCB designers that have no clue what a guitar amp's life is like. They have dealt mostly with BAD PCB designs, not good ones.

[chief mushroom cloud]

As a sniveling lurker, this is the kind of stuff that's intriguing to me.

Re: neatness in hand wiring-
I too, react to 'ratsnests' and 'pans of spaghetti' wiring...but do acknowledge that a properly working AND good sounding circuit is goal #1. That being said, I'm of the mind 'a job worth doing is a job worth doing well'. Sure, the first few builds are going to be 'experiments in manufacturing' and are really on the order of '1st article prototypes'. I would only judge if I didn't see progress of improvement of subsequent builds regardless if they were all different designs. I managed mfg of large format mix consoles back in the 90s, and I would write your ass up for less. Yes, I am an asshole

Re: pcbs...tube guitar amp pcb to be specific-
This is what I currently do for a living (along w/ some aviation bullshit that's boring as fuck but pays too good). I'm not going to say who I work for or what brands I work on because there are enough members here who do know who I am and who I've been working for....*cough..JazzGuitarGimp...cough...
I am certainly not the best....but nor am I the worst (I do a lot of un-fucking of pcb amp designs). I've listened to the exact same circuits as handwired prototypes and their pcb equivalents...and in a mix or live band situation, all else being equal...they don't sound different. Yea, if you are one those people that play in a vacuum (all by yourself in your bedroom at your parent's house)...there are subtle, yet not diminished qualitative differences. Go with the handwired, then.

But this is what I definitely know: Pcb amps CAN be designed to sound really great, be very reliable, be roadworthy with the best of the handwired, and can be made to be serviceable & modifiable.

In the interest of some 'handwirers' maybe trying their hand at pcb design (with any of the freebee software out there...Sparkfun, etc), I think a new dedicated thread or topic or whatever would be fun to just address tube guitar amp design best layout (and fabrication) practices. Why....I would even return as a TAG participant rather than a judgemental bickering lurker asshole! I know there's a handful of other members here that do pcb design, and R.G. is a really good source of tried and true tech knowledge on this very subject.

Anyway...this might sound like a condescending rant....which it is....but it's also a baited line to start participating again.

[xtian]

PCB production cost has dropped to "nearly free." I'm excited by the idea, but have never had the need for more than one or two of anything. But now I've gotten into Arduino programming, 3D printing, WS2812B LEDs, etc, so there's much more opportunity to get into PCB design now. I'm on board!

[Lauri]

I started building my amps on PCB's when I realized it's much easier and cheaper to design a PCB and order it from China than to buy a tag board and eyelets and hammer them in place. Unfortunately the interiors of my builds haven't become any neater than with eyelet boards, because now I end up cramming more stuff in to a smaller space.

[stephenl]

As pointed out by others, most peoples experience with PCB amps have been commercial, value engineered pieces of crap. Maybe a new sub-forum could be started here to explore well executed PCB designs and develop some best practices.

I think it would be cool to develop some standard boards for power supplies, tone controls, etc and do group purchases...

[nworbetan]

If R.G. isn't going to link his website then somebody needs to.

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/p ... -to-pt.htm

[chief mushroom cloud]

If R.G. isn't going to link his website then somebody needs to.

http://www.geofex.com/article_folders/p ... -to-pt.htm

Great start!
And how about a VERY useful tool: http://saturnpcb.com/pcb_toolkit.htm

I found this article quite interesting: http://zerocapcable.com/?page_id=228