Kalimba - New clip demoing both Ojai and Tag circuit

[tubedogsmith]

Shad, thanks for the explanation. Scott, regarding the opening clip, the highs are higher and the lows are lower on the Ojai, the other one is more mid dominant. That said, you've never posted a bad clip and I like them all. They all work for what you do. the only real difference is what feels best to you when you're doing it I guess.

[Max]

Seems like the more I read about and hear tone comparisons the more I believe the mind is hearing more than the ears!

Hi Chip,

most probably. That’s one of the reasons, why often "blind tests" are thought to be helpful in the evaluation of musical instruments (BTW: IMO blind tests are not "fooling" people). Just remember the famous "Stradivarius blind test" by the BBC in 1974 with Isaac Stern and Pinchas Zukerman.

Here's an example for differences in the results of a free estimation and a "blind test":

"(...)
2. Education and playing experience develop a prejudice, meaning an unconscious preference for (1) an instrument from a renowned maker, (2) old or historical instruments [2], or (3) for instruments similar to the musician's own instrument, etc. For example, the sound of a Stradivarius violin will likely be rated higher than other old Italian violins, once the listeners have been informed about the makers names. In such listening tests a "different" tone quality compared to the established ultimate maker is equivalent to "poorer," almost by definition. A similar situation exists among pianos, with Steinway & Sons as the "standard of excellence".
(…)
To resolve some doubts about the reliability of the musicians' judgments, we organized a complicated and rather expensive three-step evaluation experiment, with 12 professional pianists as expert players/listeners. All pianists were pedagogues at the Leningrad Conservatory of Music.

Step 1: Free estimation. Three concert grand pianos - Leningrad-made, Hamburg Steinway, and Bechstein were placed on the stage of the concert hall in the conservatory. The experts were asked to play whatever they wanted and to compare the three pianos in three pitch ranges (bass, middle, and treble) with respect to tone quality, dynamic range, and playing comfort. The experts were asked to fill out forms, using (1) free verbalizations of their impressions, and (2) to rate the pianos by their tone, mechanical, and overall qualities. The last question on the form was whether the expert thought that he would be able to discriminate the instruments by their tone quality only, if presented to tones, chords or scales played on the pianos.

The results of this free estimation were absolutely as expected. The tone of the Steinway piano was judged the best in all registers, followed by Bechstein, and the last was the Leningrad piano. No clearly expressed comments were given about the differences in the playing comfort. All experts found the differences in tone quality so distinct that they had no doubts of that they would be able to discriminate the instruments by listening to played tones, chords and scales.

Step 2: Listening test. Listening tests consisting of separate tones, scales and chords played on the three pianos behind an acoustically transparent curtain were conducted. The listener's tasks were (1) to identify which of three pianos was played, and (2) to order two stimuli with respect to sound quality.

In this test, the result was in short that the musicians were not able to determine properly which piano was played, and their preferences in ordering stimuli did not correspond to those expressed in step 1 of the experiment (see Fig. 1, cases 1-4).(...)"

Source: http://www.engineeringandmusic.de/indiv ... Paper.html

Cheers,

Max

[Max]

But if someone would ask me concerning a suggestion of my own, I would - for cultural and financial reasons - perhaps recommend not to remove the pickup covers from a still all original and previously untouched '59 Les Paul Custom in at least excellent condition in order to find out the colour of the bobbins - or for whatever reason.

And if someone would be in doubt concerning this, I would perhaps further recommend to ask Walter Carter or George Gruhn: http://www.gruhn.com/
AFAIK both are very friendly and knowledgeable guys concerning the question: "How to treat collectible instruments?"

I would take those suckers right off and have a good close look.

Absolutely believable that you would do so, as you have already demonstrated this kind of personal perspective on the topic "How to treat collectible instruments?" by degooping #183 in order to disclose its "tone secrets".

Cheers,

Max

[talbany]

I'll cut to the chase...Was/Has anyone been able to successfully reproduce the sonic qualities in a replicate of #183 FEEL and all?...

Can't tell by the clips.

Tony

[Structo]

That was the old way to denote value and tolerance.

250K used to be 25pf 10%

[Max]

I'll cut to the chase...Was/Has anyone been able to successfully reproduce the sonic qualities in a replicate of #183 FEEL and all?...

Can't tell by the clips.

Tony

Tony,

it is my strong believe that you will probably get different answers from:

The builder of the clone and from Alexander
The owner of the clone and the owner of #183
A player in a test in which he knows what he plays
A player in a "blind test"
An ampgarage expert audience knowing what is played
An ampgarage expert audience in a "blind test"
An average audience of a live concert
An average last.fm listener who listens to the same song, one time with the lead guitar track recorded with the clone and a second time with the lead guitar track recorded with #183.

That is, why IMO only procedures like this one http://www.engineeringandmusic.de/indiv ... Paper.html could (perhaps - and with some good luck!) lead to meaningful and repeatable answers to your question.

All the best and a great weekend,

Max

[Mr Dumble]

But if someone would ask me concerning a suggestion of my own, I would - for cultural and financial reasons - perhaps recommend not to remove the pickup covers from a still all original and previously untouched '59 Les Paul Custom in at least excellent condition in order to find out the colour of the bobbins - or for whatever reason.

And if someone would be in doubt concerning this, I would perhaps further recommend to ask Walter Carter or George Gruhn: http://www.gruhn.com/
AFAIK both are very friendly and knowledgeable guys concerning the question: "How to treat collectible instruments?"

I would take those suckers right off and have a good close look.

Absolutely believable that you would do so, as you have already demonstrated this kind of personal perspective on the topic "How to treat collectible instruments?" by degooping #183 in order to disclose its "tone secrets".

Cheers,

Max

Correct.

[Mr Dumble]

I'll cut to the chase...Was/Has anyone been able to successfully reproduce the sonic qualities in a replicate of #183 FEEL and all?...

Can't tell by the clips.

Tony

If any one can do it, Shad will, as he knows the amp better than anyone. I will have 2 clones right next to 183 soon, and will post the clips. We will do blind testing as well.

[Mac Daddy]

If any one can do it, Shad will, as he knows the amp better than anyone. I will have 2 clones right next to 183 soon, and will post the clips. We will do blind testing as well. [/quote]


[IMG:590:536]http://i15.photobucket.com/albums/a373/bduds/Shecky.jpg[/img]

[talbany]

I was not questioning Shads abilities. The question was. Has he or anyone else done it?..
IMHO posting clips ( MP3 especially playing through computer speakers) tells only a part of the story..(Can't convince me otherwise sorry) especially when it comes to feel how the amp responds at various volumes levels and tone settings.. How each interfaces with various guitars, speakers, External loops...This seems rather obvious to me and find it rather interesting/amusing that many others here don't call this out.. I mean come on folks were talking about the exact value of a snubber cap measurement in circuit... To then actually believe that an exact replica of an amp built by another builder (No Offence Shad) can accurately reproduce the sound of a 25 year old amp made by one of the most gifted builders of our time (as well as a multitude of other un-controlled factors) is for me quite frankly hard to believe..
perhaps a 183 replica could possibly be built and come close to the original (perhaps close enough to pass an MP3 whatever blind taste test)
But for someone who claims to know tone tells me an exact replica of a Dumble has been made exactly I would think his claim to know tone would now be in question..Think about it..
On with the taste test..


Tony

[Structo]

I agree, I think the word Replica is more appropriate.

Maybe semantics, but clone implies that it is identical in every facet.

[Mac Daddy]

[quote="talbany"]I was not questioning Shads abilities. The question was. Has he or anyone else done it?..
IMHO posting clips ( MP3 especially playing through computer speakers) tells only a part of the story..(Can't convince me otherwise sorry) especially when it comes to feel how the amp responds at various volumes levels and tone settings.. How each interfaces with various guitars, speakers, External loops...This seems rather obvious to me and find it rather interesting/amusing that many others here don't call this out.. I mean come on folks were talking about the exact value of a snubber cap measurement in circuit... To then actually believe that an exact replica of an amp built by another builder (No Offence Shad) can accurately reproduce the sound of a 25 year old amp made by one of the most gifted builders of our time (as well as a multitude of other un-controlled factors) is for me quite frankly hard to believe..
perhaps a 183 replica could possibly be built and come close to the original (perhaps close enough to pass an MP3 whatever blind taste test)
But for someone who claims to know tone tells me an exact replica of a Dumble has been made exactly I would think his claim to know tone would now be in question..Think about it..
On with the taste test..

Tony I think you make some very good points
I too also believe that it is hard for someone that has never played,felt , interacted with a Dumble to be able to make a true judgement call
Unless they are their playing and listening to each Amp in question
Their is a personal connection you get
You must own a Dumble Lol
Mac

[talbany]

Tony I think you make some very good points
I too also believe that it is hard for someone that was never played,felt , interacted with a Dumble to be able to make a true judgement call
Unless they are their playing and listening to each Amp in question
You must own a Dumble
Mac

I agree!!.. We must keep in mind everything on this planet changes with time.. To think a Dumble amp is the exception to this rule would be ludicrous!!

With this being said a Dumble (Same amp) right out of the box will experience some rather drastic shifts in tone/Feel (More so than the value of a snubber). over its lifespan..trying to replicate these shifts are a rather big X-factor to overcome..A good example of this would be the EJ SSS that underwent a Power supply alteration/change which by Eric's account no longer appealed to him..Why?...(and doesn't the Ojai have seasoned iron in it .. Why?)... Some players might not have noticed this change (doubtful it would be noticed in a blind taste test MP3) so we file this under the subjective category and we're talking EJ here..
For me it's not so much a matter of it's a Dumble as it is the uncontrollable anomalies surrounding the physics that in turn GREATLY effects tone and feel!!..
Believe me I am not trying to impart my opinions on others..Believe what you will..
I know this is beating a dead hoarse so I'll quit..
Cue applause..
All The Best!!


Tony

[Mr Dumble]

I was not questioning Shads abilities. The question was. Has he or anyone else done it?..
IMHO posting clips ( MP3 especially playing through computer speakers) tells only a part of the story..(Can't convince me otherwise sorry) especially when it comes to feel how the amp responds at various volumes levels and tone settings.. How each interfaces with various guitars, speakers, External loops...This seems rather obvious to me and find it rather interesting/amusing that many others here don't call this out.. I mean come on folks were talking about the exact value of a snubber cap measurement in circuit... To then actually believe that an exact replica of an amp built by another builder (No Offence Shad) can accurately reproduce the sound of a 25 year old amp made by one of the most gifted builders of our time (as well as a multitude of other un-controlled factors) is for me quite frankly hard to believe..
perhaps a 183 replica could possibly be built and come close to the original (perhaps close enough to pass an MP3 whatever blind taste test)
But for someone who claims to know tone tells me an exact replica of a Dumble has been made exactly I would think his claim to know tone would now be in question..Think about it..
On with the taste test..


Tony

I agree the clips only tell the tonal part. I have never said otherwise. I will report how the amps feel as well. Not buying into the 25 year old thing at ALL however. I owned the amp, and my TwoRocks are extremely close tonally and feel wise. I could easily fool you with clips of the Emmy and the Dumble, my Sig V1 and Dumble, my Custom and Dumble, or my Artist and dumble. The TwoRock Artist is off the charts great, and taking into account the cleans, I may prefer it as an overal amp to the Dumble anyway.

[Mr Dumble]

Here is an example for you. #183, which is EL34s, and a TwoRock Custom which is 6L6. In the room, the amps are even closer than these clips show. I did not even try to dial the amps in to sound the same. Both clips are with all controls around noon. ES335 straight into both amps in a mesa cab with G12h30 speakers. (The bloom on the Dumble is simply the best I have ever heard.)

Insane Dumble #183 tone. http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

Insane TwoRock Custom Tone: http://www.soundclick.com/player/single ... i&newref=1

VERY GOOD!!