Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

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ayan
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by ayan »

With all due respect to everyone here, I think the philosophical questions posed here will be difficult to answer and there will never be an answer that satisfies everyone. For me, the question about why Tony's "feedback city" amp is capable of feeding back/sustaining so easily, on the clean channel, without PAB on, and at relatively manageable volumes is much more of a tangible and objective thing to address. Maybe Tony just stumbled on that, but I think the idea is to try tro trace his footsteps if we can pull that off.

The fact that Dumble may have been able to think that capability in his mind and come up with a way to implement it is another matter and simply fascinating. Sadly, I don't believe any one of us in this forum, at least that I am aware of, has been able to get inside H.A. Dumble's mind and get a glimpse of how it works. I've given up hope in this area.

Of course, my "contribution" has amounted to yet another philosiphical installment... :)

Cheers everyone,

Gil
CHIP wrote:Well spoken, Max.
A guitarists search for amplifying his specialized voice will be made a lot easier if and when some of these desirable traits of HADs' amps are unlocked.
The difficulty of obtaining an understanding and reproducing these traits is a reminder of how special a builder like HAD really is.
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martin manning
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by martin manning »

ayan wrote:With all due respect to everyone here, I think the philosophical questions posed here will be difficult to answer and there will never be an answer that satisfies everyone. For me, the question about why Tony's "feedback city" amp is capable of feeding back/sustaining so easily, on the clean channel, without PAB on, and at relatively manageable volumes is much more of a tangible and objective thing to address. Maybe Tony just stumbled on that, but I think the idea is to try tro trace his footsteps if we can pull that off...
Well said Gil! Figuring out what causes this and learning how to control it is the real persuit here, or should be!
Max
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by Max »

ayan wrote:For me, the question about why Tony's "feedback city" amp is capable of feeding back/sustaining so easily, on the clean channel, without PAB on, and at relatively manageable volumes is much more of a tangible and objective thing to address.
IMO the question why exactly Tony's "Feedback City" processes the signal present at its input in the way it does, #102 like #102 does, #183 like #183 does, #124 like #124 does, #075 like #075 does and #008 like #008 does etc., is indeed "a tangible and objektive thing to address" .

How a guitar amplifier works and why precisely it processes a signal in the way it does and why its sound is perceived in the way it's perceived by us humans, is IMO a question that IMO can be answered by applying the results and methods of the natural sciences involved: physics and psychophysics.

Cheers,

Max
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ayan
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by ayan »

I'd be curious as to how we would go about doing that considering that, as far as I know, we have no access to either 102 or 183. That sounds more like imponderable than tangible to me, Max. On the flip side of the coin, "we" have Tony's amp available for testing. :)

Cheers,

Gil
Max wrote:
ayan wrote:For me, the question about why Tony's "feedback city" amp is capable of feeding back/sustaining so easily, on the clean channel, without PAB on, and at relatively manageable volumes is much more of a tangible and objective thing to address.
IMO the question why exactly Tony's "Feedback City" processes the signal present at its input in the way it does, #102 like #102 does, #183 like #183 does, #124 like #124 does, #075 like #075 does and #008 like #008 does etc., is indeed "a tangible and objektive thing to address" .

How a guitar amplifier works and why precisely it processes a signal in the way it does and why its sound is perceived in the way it's perceived by us humans, is IMO a question that IMO can be answered by applying the results and methods of the natural sciences involved: physics and psychophysics.

Cheers,

Max
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LeftyStrat
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by LeftyStrat »

ayan wrote:The fact that Dumble may have been able to think that capability in his mind and come up with a way to implement it is another matter and simply fascinating. Sadly, I don't believe any one of us in this forum, at least that I am aware of, has been able to get inside H.A. Dumble's mind and get a glimpse of how it works. I've given up hope in this area.
What I wouldn't give to sit down and talk amps with him. Maybe he could make more money doing amp building clinics than building amps.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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ayan
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by ayan »

Me too. And I have wondered if he doesn't think it'd be a shame if all that knowledge simply vanished when he departs? I don't know jack about much, but whatever I've found out I've shared with you guys for that very reason. Ha ha ha ha! :)

Gil
LeftyStrat wrote:
What I wouldn't give to sit down and talk amps with him. Maybe he could make more money doing amp building clinics than building amps.
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Structo
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by Structo »

Well by all reports Alexander is a bit of a recluse.
So he probably isn't very outgoing, ha!

I wonder how he feels when he sees one of his ODS amps selling for $50K when all he got was $5-8K.

He must not really need a lot of money because he doesn't seem to be building that much.
I wonder how many ODS type amps he builds a year?

Some say he won't build those anymore then you hear about someone getting one.
Tom

Don't let that smoke out!
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LeftyStrat
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by LeftyStrat »

Structo wrote: I wonder how he feels when he sees one of his ODS amps selling for $50K when all he got was $5-8K.
At this point he should be auctioning all his builds off on eBay. If that was the only way to get a new one, and he only produced a couple a year, might even drive the price higher.
It's never too late to have a happy childhood.
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by Max »

ayan wrote:I'd be curious as to how we would go about doing that considering that, as far as I know, we have no access to either 102 or 183.
#102: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12873

#183: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13095

Tony's amp (at least as far as I understand Tony's posts concerning this): #102 + all the changes and mods he reported here.

And AFAIK at least some members here have access to #183.

And AFAIK the results and methods of physics and psychophysics are publicly accessible.

Cheers,

Max
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ayan
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by ayan »

Tony has an amp which has some unique characteristics that most of us find interesting and desirable. He has made himself available to performs tests to try to unveil why his amp it sounds like it sounds. If you could kindly point me to a similar resource about 102 or 183, I would be very grateful, maybe you know something I don't about that.

Thanks,

Gil

Max wrote:
ayan wrote:I'd be curious as to how we would go about doing that considering that, as far as I know, we have no access to either 102 or 183.
#102: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12873

#183: http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=13095

Tony's amp (at least as far as I understand Tony's posts concerning this): #102 + all the changes and mods he reported here.

And AFAIK at least some members here have access to #183.

And AFAIK the results and methods of physics and psychophysics are publicly accessible.

Cheers,

Max
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by dcribbs1412 »

ayan wrote: I don't know jack about much, but whatever I've found out I've shared with you guys for that very reason. Ha ha ha ha! :)

Gil
Very much appreciated
just wanted to say thanks for sharing.

Darin
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ayan
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by ayan »

You're very welcome. :)

Gil
dcribbs1412 wrote:
ayan wrote: I don't know jack about much, but whatever I've found out I've shared with you guys for that very reason. Ha ha ha ha! :)

Gil
Very much appreciated
just wanted to say thanks for sharing.

Darin
Mac Daddy
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by Mac Daddy »

http://youtu.be/LwFz9_cVh6Y
Good night sweet prince :wink:
Max
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by Max »

ayan wrote: If you could kindly point me to a similar resource about 102 or 183
Concerning #183 you could perhaps ask Mac Daddy to be so kind to let you analyze the relationships between the signals present at its input and the signals present at its output by using suitable measuring instruments in order to study how precisely #183 processes the signal. And AFAIK #183 has been degooped and the details of its circuit, its layout and the kind of parts used are known here and AFAIK documented in the files section.

If Mac Daddy should agree, then IMO all else what would be needed is IMO the commitment of someone who's interested or perhaps just curious enough - and so perhaps motivated enough, too - to take the trouble and spend the time and money needed for such a kind of research. Judging based on my own experiences in other fields of science there aren't comfortable and fast roads to scientific results. To some extent perhaps commitment, knowledge and experience can replace some time and/or money, but ÍMO only to some extent.

Concerning #102 you could perhaps ask Brandon to share some more detailed info with you as can be found in the files section here, that you perhaps could use then as a starting point to analyze in a scientific way what kind of tone and feel will be produced by such a kind of circuit, such a kind of layout and the parts used in #102. AFAIR Brandon once posted here, that you're always the first one he calls when he finds something new under the goop. So I think that it's rather probable, that he will share his knowledge concerning #102 with you if you should be interested enough and ask him.

BTW: If some electronic engineer is able to successfully design a circuit and a layout of an amplifier with a certain kind of timbre and feel in mind by applying the results and methods of physics and psychophysics, he will IMO perhaps be able, too, to deduct at least the more important charateristics of the timbre and feel of an amplifier just based on the details of its circuit and its layout and its parts.

By trial and error (what happens to the timbre and feel etc. if you change the OT e.g.) you can IMO of course find out if something changes in the tone and feel of an amplifier when you change some part or some detail of its circuit and/or layout. And by this method you can perhaps at least identify the parts and the details of the circuit and /or layout involved. But knowing if the tone and feel of an amp changes when you change some part is IMO something rather different from understanding why the tone and feel changes in exactly the way it does when changing this part - at least in a scientific sense of why. To know if something changes in the human perception of the tone and feel of an amplifier when e.g. some part is replaced is IMO just the basis for studying why exactly the human perception of its tone and feel changes when e.g. this part is changed - but it's not the same.

Cheers,

Max
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Re: Dumble 183 and Quinn TKT

Post by boldaslove6789 »

Max,

183 has already been degooped by Shad (of Quinnamps). All the amps measurements are well known as well as the circuit topology and the parts that were used to make the amp.

All these details are available in this thread:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... hlight=183
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