Getting a smoother OD

[scotto]

Sorry for the delayed response on this, I had to pull the chassis to check. The Heyboer I have says OT-4400, HTS- 9414, 9960913. I bought it from Brandon in the early days of this forum. Think he was just getting started with Bludotone. He was very helpful to me in getting my amp dialed in. I recall that it is a a custom wind but worth checking with Heyboer if want this one. It was a dramatic improvement in tone and general smoothness over the then stock Ceriatone OT. You will hear many saying that size matters with trannys and that may be true but worth noting that this one is actually lighter than the stock one. So thankfully, size isn't everything .
Scott

[philbard]

Sorry for the delayed response on this, I had to pull the chassis to check. The Heyboer I have says OT-4400, HTS- 9414, 9960913. I bought it from Brandon in the early days of this forum. Think he was just getting started with Bludotone. He was very helpful to me in getting my amp dialed in. I recall that it is a a custom wind but worth checking with Heyboer if want this one. It was a dramatic improvement in tone and general smoothness over the then stock Ceriatone OT. You will hear many saying that size matters with trannys and that may be true but worth noting that this one is actually lighter than the stock one. So thankfully, size isn't everything .
Scott

Whoa, thanks so much for going to that much trouble! I'll consider this maybe after the rig has had some time to break in as most are suggesting. That way I'll know which change makes a difference. Cheers!

[scotto]

Sounds like a solid plan. We're all here to help. Happy Holidays!

[Charlie Wilson]

Sorry for the delayed response on this, I had to pull the chassis to check. The Heyboer I have says OT-4400, HTS- 9414, 9960913. I bought it from Brandon in the early days of this forum. Think he was just getting started with Bludotone. He was very helpful to me in getting my amp dialed in. I recall that it is a a custom wind but worth checking with Heyboer if want this one. It was a dramatic improvement in tone and general smoothness over the then stock Ceriatone OT. You will hear many saying that size matters with trannys and that may be true but worth noting that this one is actually lighter than the stock one. So thankfully, size isn't everything .
Scott

If this was a custom wound transformer for Brandon, Heyboer probably won't wind one. Customer's unique formulas are proprietary.
CW

[philbard]

The Dales on the grids would not be my first choice and the metal films on the LNFB either.
CW

Heard that from Ian as well, I'll look into replacing. Suggestion for brand and sources?

Bought a pair of sneakers and they were a little tight, guy at the store said don't worry they'll break in. Ended up with torn seams in the shoes and shin splits. Sorry I had to be a wise guy. Sure let it break in if you want. Can't hurt. At least not as much as those shoes did. You've got Xicon 1w carbon films everywhere else, so maybe try those on the grids. For 10meg on your LNFB buy these https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-meg-1-4-wat ... 2749.l2649. Tony turned me on to them and they are the only ones I have liked so far in that spot. I bought a few more before I posted this.
CW

Charlie,
Your mention of a 10 Meg in the feedback loop has me wondering if this is a mod. My current resistor is a 4K7, which I've seen used in a number of other schematics on the forum. Is this a mod you use and if so what is the benefit? Also, snipped the tie on the wires between V2 and V3 and moved the cathode and plate wires away from the OD wires per your suggestion, but didn't notice any changes to the sound of the OD. Probably a good move though, I see your logic. Thx...

[ijedouglas]

Hi Phil,

Charlie is referring to the LNFB which is on V1. There are 2 10M resistors in series on either side of the 0.047uf (4 total) on the original Dumble amps. On the Ceriatone layout I see 2 x 22M resistors on either side of the 0.05uf instead. Take a look at the #0124 layout and you will see. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5719
The 4k7 GNFB resistor is correct

[Guy77]

Hi Phil,
Another option is to listen to some of the recording of the other versions of Dumble's ODS amps. There are many recording in the Dumble File section here.
It may turn out that you prefer the overdrive tones of a Low Plate as opposed to a High plate amp for example or a combination of High Plate and Low plate or some other model. It can be hard sometimes to get all the sounds you want from one amp. This is why many of us have lots of amps!


Happy Holidays!

Guy

[philbard]

Hi Phil,

Charlie is referring to the LNFB which is on V1. There are 2 10M resistors in series on either side of the 0.047uf (4 total) on the original Dumble amps. On the Ceriatone layout I see 2 x 22M resistors on either side of the 0.05uf instead. Take a look at the #0124 layout and you will see. https://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=5719
The 4k7 GNFB resistor is correct

Ah, thanks. I was unaware of the fact that the function of those were LNFB, my inexperience showing. So if I'm not mistaken my overall resistance and capacitance in that loop is about the same as the original Dumble's but not exact. Would that difference be enough to matter?

[philbard]

Hi Phil,
Another option is to listen to some of the recording of the other versions of Dumble's ODS amps. There are many recording in the Dumble File section here.
It may turn out that you prefer the overdrive tones of a Low Plate as opposed to a High plate amp for example or a combination of High Plate and Low plate or some other model. It can be hard sometimes to get all the sounds you want from one amp. This is why many of us have lots of amps!


Happy Holidays!

Guy

Yeah good suggestion, I'm getting around to that. I've been buried in the posts here for the last couple days trying to get a better understanding of the Dumble designs. Lots of posts here . It seems its generally accurate to say the Low Plates are brighter than High. I don't mind a brighter overall amp, but on mine I set treble at about 4 and flip the Bright Switch on to get the sparkle I like so that seems bright enough. Its just that in that config the OD has too much icepick. Its dawning on me that the way I need to look at it is that the OD without its own tone stack will just reflect the tonalities of the clean signal.

I'm likely headed down the road of having lots more amps, but what the heck, got on the same kind of slippery slope when I started building guitars.

[Charlie Wilson]

Well there is a bright switch only on clean mod. Can you get an OD sound that you like without the bright switch engaged and maybe adjusting the tone knobs?
CW

[philbard]

Well there is a bright switch only on clean mod. Can you get an OD sound that you like without the bright switch engaged and maybe adjusting the tone knobs?
CW

Charlie,

I can get pretty close, I roll the treble off, maybe boost the kids a bit. It's just too harsh for my liking going straight across from the clean. I'm looking for more violin and less fizz. If I use this amp to gig, which I do a little of, I can't really move back and forth from clean to OD on the fly.

Tomorrow I'll post some audio clips, that may be the best way to show what's going on. I can also include some using an Eventide H9 pedal, which gives me the quality of overdrive I'm looking for. Perhaps its just not possible to achieve this with the build I have, but it will be educational and that is important for me right now since I'm so new at this stuff...

Cheers,

[talbany]

Hi Phil,
Another option is to listen to some of the recording of the other versions of Dumble's ODS amps. There are many recording in the Dumble File section here.
It may turn out that you prefer the overdrive tones of a Low Plate as opposed to a High plate amp for example or a combination of High Plate and Low plate or some other model. It can be hard sometimes to get all the sounds you want from one amp. This is why many of us have lots of amps!


Happy Holidays!

Guy

Yeah good suggestion, I'm getting around to that. I've been buried in the posts here for the last couple days trying to get a better understanding of the Dumble designs. Lots of posts here . It seems its generally accurate to say the Low Plates are brighter than High. I don't mind a brighter overall amp, but on mine I set treble at about 4 and flip the Bright Switch on to get the sparkle I like so that seems bright enough. Its just that in that config the OD has too much icepick. Its dawning on me that the way I need to look at it is that the OD without its own tone stack will just reflect the tonalities of the clean signal.

I'm likely headed down the road of having lots more amps, but what the heck, got on the same kind of slippery slope when I started building guitars.

This is a common problem with the Non-HRM's "Balance" The goal here is to have the amp shift from clean to OD/PAB be as transparent as possible. This is how the real ones sound. If your looking for a more modern high gain sound with the scooped mids and is more of a living room friendly amp then an HRM would be a better amp IMO!
Terminology?
Harsh= 3rd order type distortion or non musical..This could be component choice,orientation or lead dress? issues
Too Bright= an amp that is unbalanced clean vs OD (it's usually a bright sounding OD)
These IMO are separate issues..If you have an amp that is "harsh" and just dump highs (in OD) the harshness (or 3rd order) is still there but you just don't notice it but will effect other things like sustain/feedback and note bloom,harmonic content!!
So my question would be is the amp harsh or just unbalanced?
(looking at your amp my guess would be a little of both)

BTW. A smaller OPT will saturate sooner therefore adding compression in effect smoothing the output section.

Tony

[philbard]

This is a common problem with the Non-HRM's "Balance" The goal here is to have the amp shift from clean to OD/PAB be as transparent as possible. This is how the real ones sound. If your looking for a more modern high gain sound with the scooped mids and is more of a living room friendly amp then an HRM would be a better amp IMO!
Terminology?
Harsh= 3rd order type distortion or non musical..This could be component choice,orientation or lead dress? issues
Too Bright= an amp that is unbalanced clean vs OD (it's usually a bright sounding OD)
These IMO are separate issues..If you have an amp that is "harsh" and just dump highs (in OD) the harshness (or 3rd order) is still there but you just don't notice it but will effect other things like sustain/feedback and note bloom,harmonic content!!
So my question would be is the amp harsh or just unbalanced?
(looking at your amp my guess would be a little of both)

BTW. A smaller OPT will saturate sooner therefore adding compression in effect smoothing the output section.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thanks for chiming in, I know you are one of the most knowledgable members here.

It's probably best described as harsh. It also seems to lack sustain and harmonic content. Thinking that playing at low volumes could be part of it, I just cranked the volume to about 8 and dropped the master way down so I could stand in the same room with it and it did seem to improve the OD quality. On the other points, I'm a first time builder so obviously have lots to learn. I'm not up to speed on component orientation yet, I've learned a little about lead dress but still young there too. This place is full of good information so I'll keep plodding through the topics and hope to be a better builder as time goes on. As I mention in my first post, this is a kit so I had no choice in component selection. Not that I would have had any basis to go on if I were buying my own components, but that's why I went with a kit.

[Charlie Wilson]

Phil, do you live in the USA? Even if you don't, I can send you some things to try. PM me when you get a chance. Read the section about capacitor outer foil orientation. If you don't have a scope that's is OK, you can use Martin Manning's method using a multimeter.
CW

[talbany]

This is a common problem with the Non-HRM's "Balance" The goal here is to have the amp shift from clean to OD/PAB be as transparent as possible. This is how the real ones sound. If your looking for a more modern high gain sound with the scooped mids and is more of a living room friendly amp then an HRM would be a better amp IMO!
Terminology?
Harsh= 3rd order type distortion or non musical..This could be component choice,orientation or lead dress? issues
Too Bright= an amp that is unbalanced clean vs OD (it's usually a bright sounding OD)
These IMO are separate issues..If you have an amp that is "harsh" and just dump highs (in OD) the harshness (or 3rd order) is still there but you just don't notice it but will effect other things like sustain/feedback and note bloom,harmonic content!!
So my question would be is the amp harsh or just unbalanced?
(looking at your amp my guess would be a little of both)

BTW. A smaller OPT will saturate sooner therefore adding compression in effect smoothing the output section.

Tony

Hi Tony,

Thanks for chiming in, I know you are one of the most knowledgable members here.

It's probably best described as harsh. It also seems to lack sustain and harmonic content. Thinking that playing at low volumes could be part of it, I just cranked the volume to about 8 and dropped the master way down so I could stand in the same room with it and it did seem to improve the OD quality. On the other points, I'm a first time builder so obviously have lots to learn. I'm not up to speed on component orientation yet, I've learned a little about lead dress but still young there too. This place is full of good information so I'll keep plodding through the topics and hope to be a better builder as time goes on. As I mention in my first post, this is a kit so I had no choice in component selection. Not that I would have had any basis to go on if I were buying my own components, but that's why I went with a kit.

Phil
Thats cool and I get it and commend you for taking on the build..4th Generation amps can be a real challenge just due to it's (simple) design and cascading OD gain stages.I struggled with those same issues for many years.IMO there are some amps where all these things I mention are not as critical and are a little more forgiving,unfortunately the ODS's devil is in these details and is never just 1 thing but combination of several.
I don't want to be the old guy on a forum that is demeaning other peoples builds if they are not up to my standards, however knowing what you are going through and being there myself for so long am just trying to relay my frustrating experience's with these amps..
BTW. I've upgraded many a OTS's with the problems you mention so I get it..

Good Luck!

Tony