New Build 5/2025

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WRC34
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New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Hi friends, long time no see. Recently finished an amp and wanted to share here. It’s in a 5E3 size speaker cab and is currently running a ‘61 Jensen P12-N. The circuit bears some similarities with old Fender tweed amps like 5F2 and 5E3, so I’m posting it here but it is not a Fender or clone.

I used to always make a layout drawing but haven’t done one in ages. I would use it as a guide during the build. This time I drew the layout after completing the amp 🤷‍♂️

Despite seeing some nice low voltages my math shows it putting out 22 watts with a 5AR4 and 6V6s. The lowest combo I’ve been able to get is almost 19 watts with a 5U4GB and 6F6s which still seems high. Is my old man math whack attack?

with 5U4GB & 6F6s
Plate Voltage 306
Screens 248
Plate -> Cathode 290
Cathode -> Ground 16.5 / 15.4
33mA - 9.65 watts
31mA - 9 watts
18.65 watts total

Cathode resistors - 496 ohm each, individual bias resistors for each tube.

The amp breathes fire


Video documenting the build (basically a wanna be Uncle Doug video) with loud sound clips starting at 33:20
https://youtu.be/Pzzhmx8HHeI?si=Z7-nIDl6uaTLXEQL
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WRC34
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Holy smokes…it was used at a rehearsal today and after about 40 minutes it…stopped working. The fuse hadn’t blown and the rectifier was still “lighting up” and producing DC voltage, but the filaments on the 6.3V tubes were all dark. No sound, obviously.

I started to calculate a doom hypothesis - it being an NOS power transformer most likely from the 1950s or early ‘60s at the latest, we’re looking at a 60 - 70 year old transformer. And although it was in the original box and looked very clean God knows what kind of conditions it was stored in regarding temperature fluctuations, etc. Indeed, during the build while I was removing housing with a razor blade I found the stranded wires a little too easy to cut through. So I started to wonder if the possibility of these theories having some bearing on the transformer’s general health combined with the seemingly very hot bias that maybe the secondary windings had fused themselves together or shorted or just melted or whatever.

Smaller amps like this there usually do not have a fuse on the HV center tap like you’d typically find on larger amps (50/100 watt Marshall, etc) I have built maybe 8 or 9 amps using EL84s (sometimes 6GK6s) and 6V6s and have never put a fuse on the HV center tap. But I started to regret not installing one and wonder if I had simply been getting away with a careless build method and was now paying the price for it. To top it off, the PM-8405 like lots of old Stancor transformers has a pretty unique size and that nice, hard to come by low voltage HV secondary which would be basically impossible to replace. Damn Sam.

Not being able to accept reality I took the back cover off in traffic on my way home (ok, I was in a parking lot) and looked very closely at all the soldering, etc. I luckily saw that one of the wires from the 6.3V winding going to the pilot light was not properly soldered. A ‘cold’ solder joint as they are called. My domestic situation does not allow for prompt crankage immediately upon return to my house, but I was able to plug the amp in my kitchen and see, to my great satisfaction and pleasure, the filaments of the 6F6s and 12AX7s lit up again and that faint, glorious hiss emitted from the speaker. It would appear my doom hypothesis may have been incorrect, thank Gawd.

However, I wonder….my loud tests at home are limited to 15 mins or so. All had been well. But is it possible that, like an old carbon comp resistor once it warms up it could allow a ‘gap’ or ‘short’ to develop which ‘heals’ as the amp cools and only re-emerges after getting real hot again? OR does it not work that way with transformers: like, once they’re dead they’re DEAD.

Additionally, I had a member message me about the local grounds as opposed to a star or buss grounding scheme. I forget where I saw it recommended, but at some point I remember someone suggesting placing the electrolytics near the tubes they are supplying B+ to and grounding each of them at those points. For the simple circuits I like to make this seems to work pretty good…but, could this have some detrimental effect? Or do you guys think it was just a cold solder joint that once addressed, with all else being ok, I’ll be back in Flavor Country™️?
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by Stevem »

It was just a case of a bad solder joint I would say.
Old transformer wires even when unused ever can be hard to solder to unless you use a really hot iron and tin the wire up well by even adding some flux.

Unless I am soldering SS parts my iron is always set to 640 degrees.

Note that with a cathode biased output stage your real plate voltage is minus what your cathode voltage is.
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WRC34
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Thanks Steve!

You mean plate to cathode voltage? In my figuring this is what I did:

Cathode to ground voltage divided by cathode resistor value (496R)
Multiplied that figure by plate to cathode voltage to determine plate dissipation.

Is this right?

:)
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martin manning
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by martin manning »

WRC34 wrote: Sat May 24, 2025 2:42 pm Cathode to ground voltage divided by cathode resistor value (496R)
Multiplied that figure by plate to cathode voltage to determine plate dissipation.
That will get you plate plus screen dissipation, since cathode current includes screen current. You can adjust that figure down by 10% or so for true pentodes or 5% for beam tubes to get plate current.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

I love it!

So, based on these numbers:

with 5V4 rectifier & 6V6Gs
Plate Voltage 301
Screen Voltage 276
Plate -> Cathode 282
Cathode -> Ground 18.1 / 19.4
tube 1
18.1 % 496 = .0365 = 36mA
.0365 x 282 ‎ = 10.293 watts
tube 2
19.4 % 496 = .0391 = 39mA
.0391 x 282 ‎ = 11.0262 watts

21.3 watts total dissipation - 5% = 20.2 actual dissipation

and:

with 5U4GB & 6F6s
Plate Voltage 306
Screens 248
Plate -> Cathode 290
Cathode -> Ground 16.5 / 15.4
33mA - 9.65 watts
31mA - 9 watts

18.65 watts total - 10% = 16.8 actual dissipation

I guess this alleviates some of the panic I had!

Thx Martin
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WRC34
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

But wait…the screens are still dissipating…so while plate current is more accurate by subtracting the suggested percentages the PT still has to handle the plate and screen current, right? 🤔

I did a test this afternoon post re-solder and everything sounded good. No hiccups. The Jensen speaker sounded excellent but was lacking in low end so I ripped a Weber 12A150 out of another amp and threw it in there. This speaker sounds great but seems to have a bit too much…maybe compression is the way to describe it. I have been sitting on a Celestion Blue and initially wanted to use it in this amp but I am afraid of blowing it. Over the years I have blown a handful of Celestions (high quality, UK made ones at that) running them close to their operating limits. Conversely I have beat the snot out the Weber speakers I have owned, run them way past their supposed limits and have never blown one. (I am pretty sure I’ve mentioned this before somewhere on AG) I expected with the low HV secondary on this power transformer to end up with an amp that put out closer to 15 watts. I know I can change the output tubes’ cathode bias resistors or switch to one shared resistor, but the typical 250R shared resistor doubled is 500 and the 496/497 these read at is pretty close. I know running individual bias resistors can change the sound of the amp but will it make the tubes run hotter? And should I forget about the Blue? (I guess that’s redundant, I know I should!)
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by pdf64 »

I think your Blue would be fine, with 280V across the 6V6 it's not going to put out more than 10W.
Trying putting the numbers into a calculator eg https://www.vtadiy.com/loadline-calcula ... alculator/
The relevant output power is shown after 'at g1=0:'
Do you know the OT primary impedance?
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Hi Pete,

The OT is a Classictone 40-18037 18 watt Marshall type. The spec sheet shows the reflected impedance to be 9.2K with an 8 ohm load (the Weber currently in there is 8 ohm) and 8.2K with a 7 ohm load and the Jensen was closer to 7 ohms which is what I used to obtain the readings posted.

Even factoring in Martin’s suggested 10% less for pentodes and 5% less for beam power tubes it still seems to be blasting out way over 10 watts. The “real feel” volume in the room with the amp cranked certainly seemed as loud as a 5E3 if not a bit louder … 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️
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martin manning
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by martin manning »

Plate dissipation is not output power, it's about the severity of the operating conditions for the tube. You need a scope and a dummy load to measure output power. Also, it sounds like you're quoting DC resistance for speakers? An "8-ohm" speaker will usually measure around 7 ohms DCR, the rest is the reactive part, which varies considerably with frequency.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Martin,

I’m using a DMM set to ‘ohms’ haha. 8 ohms is the spec determined by Weber. I did not measure the speaker itself. The Jensen though, being old and whatnot, I did measure prior to installation and it read around 6.4 ohms I think. Close to 7. How else can I determine the load? Clip the meter onto the speaker terminals while playing? I don’t have an oscilloscope. I guess I thought the math above was a quick and easy way to determine the amp’s output power. The question is, can it really be that far off? Meaning can the math I used show 20 watts combined plate dissipation but actual output power be only half that?? As noted, the thing is loud as hell. Sort of in that range where it doesn’t have the girth and muscle of a 50 watt amp but is still louder than what any modern audio engineer would find acceptable in a live setting.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by sluckey »

WRC34 wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 4:13 pm Even factoring in Martin’s suggested 10% less for pentodes and 5% less for beam power tubes...
It's very easy to know what the actual screen current is rather than just estimate. Simply measure the voltage drop ***ACROSS*** the 1K/5W screen resistor that's mounted between pins 4 and 6 of the socket. Then divide that voltage by 1000 to get the actual screen current. Next, subtract the screen current from the cathode current and you will have the actual plate current.

Since you are using 1K screen resistors, you can eliminate one calculation. For example, measuring 6V across the screen resistor means you will have 6mA screen current.
I’m using a DMM set to ‘ohms’ haha.
You cannot measure speaker impedance with a DMM. Your DMM measures DC resistance only. The actual speaker impedance will always be a bit higher than the DMM reading.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by WRC34 »

Sluckey,

Man, I am getting some heavy hitters chiming in here! Martin, Pete and now you. Legends. Thanks to you all for keying in.

I didn’t know about the way to find screen current, very cool. As a way to determine what’s happening where and to find out whether I’m operating the tube within its limits in regard to plate dissipation this is indispensable. However, the speaker and PT are still dealing with combined screen dissipation + plate dissipation, right? I fixed the cold solder joint on the pilot light and then took the amp down to Blast Street for a while so my concern over what that PT can handle has been addressed. But whether the Blue can take what the amp is dishing out is still floating around out there

In lieu of having a scope I use the DMM, as I think many hobbyists do, but it’s good to know the results are inaccurate.

I do get that it’s a reactive situation between the speaker and output tube plates which dynamically varies as the speaker gets pushed, volume increases and decreases and as Martin said different frequencies matter as well.

I’m learning a lot here, you guys never let me down. Keep it coming please!
Last edited by WRC34 on Sun May 25, 2025 5:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by martin manning »

A typical speaker impedance curve is shown here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrica ... udspeakers

The dissipation measurement you made is at idle, zero signal, so it has nothing to do with power output. It is true that a push-pull amp can typically produce clean audio output power approaching twice the max plate dissipation of the tubes with the right load line, e.g. 2x 25W EL34's can produce about 50W output power.

The correct way to measure output power is with a dummy load and a scope so you can be sure the waveform is sinusoidal and unclipped. You could measure VAC across a dummy load with a true RMS DMM and get a measurement of output power, but you won't know if it is clipping or not, and you can get about twice the clean power out of the amp with the output waveform squared-off.
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Re: New Build 5/2025

Post by pdf64 »

WRC34 wrote: Sun May 25, 2025 4:13 pm Hi Pete,

The OT is a Classictone 40-18037 18 watt Marshall type. The spec sheet shows the reflected impedance to be 9.2K with an 8 ohm load (the Weber currently in there is 8 ohm) and 8.2K with a 7 ohm load and the Jensen was closer to 7 ohms which is what I used to obtain the readings posted. ...
It looks Classictone were copying the old Radiospares 'EL84 Output Transformer' Image
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