Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Express, Liverpool, Rocket, Dirty Little Monster, etc.

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RJ Guitars
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by RJ Guitars »

UR12 wrote:I have the VVR installed in an Express and I am regulating the whole amp and it is working great. You do loose a some of the quality at extremely low volumes but it doesn't matter how you go about dropping the volume your speakers will reach a point where they aren't moving enough air and at that point you will loose tone. Anything above the extremely low volumes (Think 1/2 volume instead of 1/2 power) you get very nice tone, breakup, harmonics and sustain.
Dana - for the benefit of all who do not know, can you give us the info on what the VVR is and how to get it? If that request has too much commercial action going on inside the forum, could you post an info link where we could get to the info.

I think the Rocket Crew as well as the entire AmpGarage forum would like to hear about it... sounds like it's very Trainwreck friendly.

rj
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Bear
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by Bear »

I'm not Dana, in life or on TV, but I've been trying to catch up on the VVR stuff, myself. I started here
and have been following up here.

It seems that the implementation is fairly simple for cathode biased amps. I haven't scanned info for doing fixed bias amps yet, but I haven't worked all the way through the mammoth thread.

Bear
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UR12
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by UR12 »

RJ Guitars wrote:
Dana - for the benefit of all who do not know, can you give us the info on what the VVR is and how to get it? If that request has too much commercial action going on inside the forum, could you post an info link where we could get to the info.

I think the Rocket Crew as well as the entire AmpGarage forum would like to hear about it... sounds like it's very Trainwreck friendly.

rj
VVR is just an acronym for Variable Voltage Regulator. Basically it works just like KOC's "Power Scaling" but uses a much simpler circuit that only requires 6 parts. I posted the schematic for cathode biased amps that I have been using since 2005 to regulate my own amps last winter. I will post it again at the bottom of this post. You don't need to buy anything from me to implement it on a cathode biased amp. It has been built by people using terminal strips, small turret/eyelet boards and their own handmade PCB. I do have a version that I came up with that can be used on fixed bias amps like the Express that regulates the bias along with the B+. I haven't posted the schematic for that but I have made a high quality PCB available that can be used/configured for either cathode or fixed biased amps just by populating it with the parts needed for the particular amp you have.
There are two different camps when it comes to adding "Power Scaling" to an amp. You can regulate the voltages on the whole amp or just make the voltages variable on the power section and leave the preamp running at normal voltages. No matter which way you go you have to add additional circuitry to the amp. If you regulate just the power tubes then you need to install a MV to compensate for the preamp running at normal voltages overdriving the power tubes running at reduced voltages. If you regulate the whole amp then it is possible for the signal coming from your guitar to overdrive the 1st preamp stage running at reduced voltages. At that point your vol on your guitar becomes your MV so to speak. You will need to install some blocking caps to keep DC that leaks onto the grids of the pream tubes running at extremely reduced voltages from causing a scratchyness on the guitar vol pot and amp vol pot.

If you do a search on this forum for "VVR" you will see a few threads where myself and others have implemented the VVR or KOC's power scaling. My circuit has been used on amps from 5 watts (EVJ) to 50w Komets and amps running a pair of KT88s . By running your amp at reduced voltages you drop you power levels down but keep a lot of the character of the amp intact, like the gain structure. Ken's amps are a little different in the way the gain structure is set up and IMHO I think regulating the whole amp keeps the gain structure of the amp closer to the way it was designed at full voltages. YMMV

Nothng is perfect when it comes to getting a cranked tone at very very low volumes. Attenuators require you to crank the amp up to full power levels and then attenuates the signal going to the speakers. One of the big drawbacks to atenuators is that they are hard on your power tubes while the VVR is actually prolonging the life of your power tubes. A MV by itself without some kind of voltage reduction will allow you to overdrive the preamp but not the power amp.

I don't intend for this to be a sales pitch and if someone wants to buy a board from me then that is great. If you want to take the schematic I have provided and build your own then that is cool too. I guess we are all tinkerers at heart or we wouldn't be here. I am a hobbiest and don't have an "amp company" I had boards made because a lot of people wrote me asking if I could provide them. I am not getting rich selling them and don't know how long I will keep supplying boards. I have plenty at the moment and can get more made if people still want them but I have no plans on starting a webpage or amp business so if you want them just shoot me a PM or email and I will give you particulars on pricing. I only sell either blank boards or preassembled boards for either fixed or cathode biased amps. (NO Kits you assemble yourself) They all come with instructions and BOM. There are hundreds of amps out there that are running my version of the VVR and most people love it and some find the technology just isn't their cup of tea. My best advice is to try it for yourself and form you own opinion.

Sorry to deviate from the Rocket thread but hopefully this will answer a few questions and provide you with enough info to build it into your Rocket. I have personally tried the 1/2 power switch on my first Liverpool (the Ginger clone) and found it to be pretty much useless IMO. If you just need an extra bell or whistle to add to your front panel or have an extra hole you need to fill up then go for it.
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Noel Grassy
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by Noel Grassy »

Dana,
Thanks for posting this and sharing your awesome results with this circuit. 8)
I'm going to re-read the text and see if this can help tame my hella-hot Line voltages.
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UR12
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by UR12 »

Noel Grassy wrote:Dana,
Thanks for posting this and sharing your awesome results with this circuit. 8)
I'm going to re-read the text and see if this can help tame my hella-hot Line voltages.
If your line voltages are accessive then you can put a resistor between the top of the pot and B+/Drain and it will limit how high your voltage will go. For example if you put a 100k in series with the top of the pot you can drop your voltages ~10% if you had 500V to start with you could adjust the size of that resistor to supply 450v to the amp instead of 500 and the pot would actually vary your plate voltages between 450 and 50.
Unfortunatly this will do nothing to lower the elevated AC Heater voltages caused by your line voltages being too high.
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RJ Guitars
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by RJ Guitars »

UR12 wrote:Sorry to deviate from the Rocket thread but hopefully this will answer a few questions and provide you with enough info to build it into your Rocket....
Dana, this is excellent. I was just talking with a friend today and he mentioned some musicians joke that said something about a guy carrying two amps into the studio... a Twin for clean tone and champ for the lead work...

Your gadget might just give us the real two in one with a several in between options as well.

Thanks for the note, it is exactly what I was asking for.

rj
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txbluesboy
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by txbluesboy »

I am very pleased with the VVR in my Rocket. I also found that the half power option is a waste of time. With VVR,when scaling the whole amp, the tone stays pretty consistent as you turn down the power level, the sound changes some because your not moving as much air with the speaker as volume drops, so at really low volumes you might use a different speaker. Dana's VVR is a very neat little package that you could add on in place of the standby switch and try it. If you didnt like it, (doubtful) , you could pull it out and replace the one wire you had to cut (between the rectifier and the filter caps). The only difference between Dana's system and the one I used is that mine, actually KOC's, system adds a transistor in the circuit that acts as a current limit to protect the MOSFET, and I suppose it also protects the rectifier tube from overcurrent conditions when first charging the filter caps. Its so simple on cathode biased amps that this is a good opportunity to try it.
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drhulsey
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by drhulsey »

UR12 wrote: ... I don't intend for this to be a sales pitch...
If you had a doubt about Dana's sincerity about not commercializing the VVR just drop him a PM and find out the price :!: They would be a bargain at twice, dare I say three times the price :shock: He has shared with the DIY amp community a mechanism for volume control (and divorce prevention, disturbing the peace violations, etc.) that is simple to install and does what it says it will do. A less charitable person might have gone commercial, and Dana would have been within his rights to do so without apology. The gentleman from West Virginia has given us a gift we can all use that can cure that age-old debate about "Which attenuator won't screw up my tone?"
Not many of us will have the ability to share as much as Dana has 8) :idea:

PS: VVR in ON TOPIC for any amp thread :!:
Tim

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fishy
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by fishy »

While we are on the VVR subject. I have a couple of boards from Dana which I still need to put in a some earlier projects of mine. Probably just as important as a nice board to install is the information he gives you to help you on your way. The Dr. is spot on with his post

For those of you who are interested in the idea of VVR but are less inclined to drill extra holes or dump your standby, Dave at Westlabs has a switch that can run the power and standby from one switch. That means you have a space for the pot already and you get to keep the standby circuit. Thats where I'm heading.....

Food for thought....
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by hairyandy »

fishy wrote:For those of you who are interested in the idea of VVR but are less inclined to drill extra holes or dump your standby, Dave at Westlabs has a switch that can run the power and standby from one switch. That means you have a space for the pot already and you get to keep the standby circuit. Thats where I'm heading.....

Food for thought....
Maybe I missed something in my correspondence with Dana but what is this whole "dump the standby switch" thing? I installed my VVR between the standby and the B+ on my Liverpool and it works fine. The standby still works, why would you have to lose it? Anyone care to explain what you guys are talking about?

Andy
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Richie
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by Richie »

Andy, thats how i did all the ones i installed
.. i 'think' they mean to dump the switch and use the hole for the control.. could be wrong but thats what i think they mean. Finding a spot for the control so its still on the board. But i've also place the control in different places,and run a few short wires to the pot.. worked fine that way too. I put one in a bassman amp, and it was not easy to find a spot for it to mount. The chassis in the fenders is about 1/16 in, in depth for the board to mount on the side of the chassis,so i had to mount it behind the PY and back. I removed the ground switch,and put the control in that spot..


Richie
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angelodp
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VVR Ok

Post by angelodp »

rj, VVR sure sounds like a great solution. Any thoughts about including the VVR on our layout as an option??

Best ange
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UR12
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by UR12 »

hairyandy wrote:
fishy wrote:For those of you who are interested in the idea of VVR but are less inclined to drill extra holes or dump your standby, Dave at Westlabs has a switch that can run the power and standby from one switch. That means you have a space for the pot already and you get to keep the standby circuit. Thats where I'm heading.....

Food for thought....
Maybe I missed something in my correspondence with Dana but what is this whole "dump the standby switch" thing? I installed my VVR between the standby and the B+ on my Liverpool and it works fine. The standby still works, why would you have to lose it? Anyone care to explain what you guys are talking about?



Andy
Basically you are removing the standby switch, which frees up a hole for the VVR control. You then replace your power switch with a on-off-on power switch. The way it works is to put the switch in the middle position (Off) to turn the amp off, Down position is standby and you flip it up for operate. I installed one on my 18watt super years ago and it works great and keeps you from having to drill a extra hole for the VVR knob.

It's not such a big deal if your building a custom amp or if you have a custom faceplate like your Liverpool, but like Richie said, if you are retrofitting it into an existing design it is an option.
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by Fischerman »

One other tidbit pertinent to the 'VVR in the Standby hole' is that since the Rocket uses a tube rectifier with an indirectly-heated cathode (i.e. slow turn-on) you don't really need a SB switch. I like to have a SB switch just for breaks at gigs...seems like it might save some wear on the power tubes from idling at that hot-ish idle current during that time.

But then again...if you have a VVR you could just turn the voltage down at breaks and presto...your power tubes aren't working nearly as hard.

Dana,
Do you always heat sink the MOSFET? Always using the chassis? Just curious how much of a heat sink would be required for situations where using the chassis is undesirable or a PITA.
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UR12
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Re: Building a Rocket - Layout Check for group build

Post by UR12 »

Fischerman wrote:Dana,
Do you always heat sink the MOSFET? Always using the chassis? Just curious how much of a heat sink would be required for situations where using the chassis is undesirable or a PITA.
Yes, the mosfet needs to be heat sinked. On most amps below ~35W you can get away with just bolting it to the chassis and using the chassis as a heat sink. Just make sure you use a insulator between the mosfet and the chassis. The back of the mosfet has B+ on it and you will short out your B+ to chassis ground resulting in a blown fuse and mosfet. On amps from 35 to 50w like the Komets you may or maynot need additional heat sinking in addition to the chassis. I think the chassis that Komet and Allyn has used in the past are like 1/8 " thick and Allyn has got away with just using the chassis. A thinner chassis or one made from steel may require the extra heatsink. I doubt if you need anything more than the chassis on the Rocket. If you don't use the chassis then you may need a heatsink with a fan on it like some of the computer chip setups.
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