Swapping Components - which ones, brands ,etc . .

[Geoff J]

UPDATE/EDIT:
I would like to increase the headroom

I love the clean tone, but I believe that it breaks up too quickly on the clean side

The treble is hair trigger and can be a bit bright at times

The gain channel is buzzy, harsh, and dry sounding

I am getting the merc mag Tonmaster output tranny for starters

So I guess th inquiry can be distilled into "what caps/resistors, and brands thereof, would contribute towards the above objective and which ones would need to be swapped out" ?

[Bob-I]

Geoff, What amp are you asking about? Different amps respond differently to type of components.

Being a Dumble builder and player I wrote off silver mica caps a long time ago, but with the T wreck I built it needed silver mica to get the classic T wreck tone.

Personally I like Xicon MPP or Orange drop 6PS caps for signal caps in the uF range. In the pF range I still prefer ceramic caps for most amps. For resistors I like 1W metal film, mostly I use Xicon. On Dumbles I use Vishay Dale RN65 on the plate load resistors for the added sizzle they add.

I hope that helps, but post the type of amp you're interested in.

[Geoff J]

Thanks much for the reply, Bob

This is for a Tonemaster

Originally, I was hoping to Dumble-ize the circuit, but I have decided that is too much

I like the tone of the clean, but it seems to break up a little too quick

Also, the gain channel is a bit buzzy, dry, and harsh

However, if you can tell me waht caps or resistors are used in dumbles, that would help )

[Structo]

However, if you can tell me waht caps or resistors are used in dumbles, that would help )

Heheheh, I think he just did.

[Geoff J]

However, if you can tell me waht caps or resistors are used in dumbles, that would help )

Heheheh, I think he just did.

He did , in good part.

I was also wondering in the original post what are the common components to swap out, and which ones don't really have much of an effect on tone

Can you help me out on that one ?

[Geoff J]

I have updated & distilled the inquiry to this:

I would like to increase the headroom

I love the clean tone, but I believe that it breaks up too quickly on the clean side

The treble is hair trigger and can be a bit bright at times

The gain channel is buzzy, harsh, and dry sounding

I am getting the merc mag Tonmaster output tranny for starters

So I guess th inquiry can be distilled into "what caps/resistors, and brands thereof, would contribute towards the above objective and which ones would need to be swapped out" ?

[Structo]

Don't know much about the tonemaster.

Here is a schematic I found.
http://www.schematicheaven.com/fenderam ... master.pdf

You could try a lower power preamp tube in V1 for more headroom.

Dumble used type PS Polyester caps for couplers. (orange drop).

Vishay Dale RN65 resistors for the plates.

Not sure about the bypass caps or filters.

[jelle]

For a Tonemaster...I have seen pics of the internals of these amps and that does not look like the building quality that is needed for a good OD sound. I'm afraid you can buy parts and swap as much as you can stand but it won't help a lot. Of course I could be wrong. Can you post a gutshot of the amp? That will allow us to help.

There is more to an amp's tone that parts selection and a schematic.

Jelle

[Geoff J]

cool, thanks guys - yeah I NEED TO GET A CAMERA(whoops) for the gut shots

I will take them tomorrow w/a friend's camera

I tried some AT's to increase the headroom, and it made a little bit of difference, but not what I expected

[km6xz]

Geoff, don't get too caught up in the high-end hi-fi myths of components having some mysterious unmeasurable secret quality that is responsible for the particular sound of an amp. A-B tests that are double blind are rare but mostly reveal that a $20 resistor is no different from a $0.10 resistor if the they have the same resistance material type. If a circuit has carbon composition resistors, there might be a minor change in sound if metal film is substituted because they have different basic values at different voltages and temperatures. They differ in voltage and temperature coefficients by material regardless of manufacturer, brand or price. Comp resistors can have higher noise if in the signal chain than most other types but rarely is it a factor in audible quality assessments. A wire wound is sometimes used in power applications such as screen, bleeder, or cathode circuits. Changing that type to another material will have different characteristics due to their higher reactance, both inductive and capacitive(having both Xl and Xc naturally they self resonate at some frequency, just make sure that frequency is well above any operational frequency) and different TC. Consider the true characteristics of a resistor type, not its price, brand or manufacturer.
If you are trying to duplicate the sound or transfer function of an old amp which used carbon comp resistors, use the same carbon comp resistors because their value drifts differently than other types. A carbon comp running 500volts across it with will have a different value than with 50v, and will have a different value at 100degrees C than at 20C. Also they have higher variation of tolerance, so measure a known good one from a working circuit. An old Fender doesn't sound identical to a modern one, not better or worse, just different based on different component types even of the same marked values.

Capacitors are slightly more variable in characteristics based on dielectric type than resistors are. An aluminum electrolytic has different characteristics than a ceramic or plastic film cap of the same value but seldom do that have values in the same range so you will have less choice in types to select from.

Get the gain and frequency response correct before worrying about the "sound" of dynamic complex signal transfer functions of a circuit. If you are hearing a noticeable sound characteristic difference it is not due to which manufacturer produced the parts, it is a grosser element such as values and actual circuit topography or a defective or out of tolerance components.
What you are asking is essentially "what wiper blade brand do I use on my car to get the handling I want". Using a particular brand might give an subjective difference during a race, but it is less influential than assumed or than, say, which driving glove material was used or what you had for breakfast. If you imagine a difference, it might be worth it to you, but rest assured, it is imagination that creates a difference rather than some measurable and repeatable performance difference. High end whiz bang mega buck components are usually sold based on marketing and ignorance rather than any measurable or discernable difference in function.
You can buy $3,000/ft "interconnects" that sell well but there is no objective difference from a $3 hunk on speaker wire. A whole industry has been built up around the gullibility of consumers who believe in magic. I hate to see that drift over into the working musician realm. A few more $50/hour lessons will almost aways result in better sound than swapping out $50 a piece preamp tubes. If a tube is bad, sure, changing will make a big difference. Tubes of the same type have much less variability than assumed by the hobbyist or consumer. If ANY difference is heard, usually it is because they are not comparing apples to apples, there are other differences unrelated to the manufacturer such as one tube being out of tolerance or having a different design(and a different true designator as with the case of most imported tubes today).

So basically, Geoff, if your amp sounds bad to you, and another amp with the same topography sounds good, your amp is broken, its not due to the other amp using some magical parts. Fix the amp first before comparing. If it is a new design or a DIY, fix the design and construction first. To fix anything you need to know what it is doing and what it should be doing in a quantitative way. What is the gain of each stage now? What should it be? Fix the problem and the sound will take care of itself.
Good luck

[CaseyJones]

Geoff, don't get too caught up in the high-end hi-fi myths of components having some mysterious unmeasurable secret quality that is responsible for the particular sound of an amp. A-B tests that are double blind are rare but mostly reveal that a $20 resistor is no different from a $0.10 resistor if the they have the same resistance material type. If a circuit has carbon composition resistors, there might be a minor change in sound if metal film is substituted because they have different basic values at different voltages and temperatures. They differ in voltage and temperature coefficients by material regardless of manufacturer, brand or price. Comp resistors can have higher noise if in the signal chain than most other types but rarely is it a factor in audible quality assessments.

Yup. However "The Devil Is In The Details". Your ears if they're not spent by now are astonishingly sensitive instruments, they are capable of discerning subtle differences in components, lead dress, brand to brand differences in tubes, etc.. Audiophiles may be blithering idiots with too much money and tin ears for the most part but all of 'em ain't tone deaf. The effect of one component choice may be minimal but the effect stacks up, the cumulative effect can be quite dramatic.

[CaseyJones]

Geoff, don't get too caught up in the high-end hi-fi myths of components having some mysterious unmeasurable secret quality that is responsible for the particular sound of an amp. A-B tests that are double blind are rare but mostly reveal that a $20 resistor is no different from a $0.10 resistor if the they have the same resistance material type. If a circuit has carbon composition resistors, there might be a minor change in sound if metal film is substituted because they have different basic values at different voltages and temperatures. They differ in voltage and temperature coefficients by material regardless of manufacturer, brand or price. Comp resistors can have higher noise if in the signal chain than most other types but rarely is it a factor in audible quality assessments.

Yup. However "The Devil Is In The Details". Your ears if they're not spent by now are astonishingly sensitive instruments, they are capable of discerning subtle differences in components, lead dress, brand to brand differences in tubes, etc.. Audiophiles may be blithering idiots with too much money and tin ears for the most part but all of 'em ain't tone deaf. The effect of one component choice may be minimal but the effect stacks up, the cumulative effect can be quite dramatic.

To Geoff: I'd try a couple NOS 5751s, one for V1, one for V2. The gain reduction should help both your clean and your overdrive tone. You're doing a balancing act, if you're looking for pristine clean and a hard-ass distortion tone you may have to compromise one way or the other. You can easily clean up the clean tones by backing off a little on your guitar volume especially if you have hot pickups. Then wind the wick up for your overdrive tone.

"Buzzy" indicates to me that you have more gain than you need.

[Geoff J]

Hey, awesome replies, guys

Well, I love the clean tone out of this amp, just looking for more headroom

for dirt, I A/B to a Voodoo V-Plex, so enhancing the gain channel out of the TM would just be a bonus

My short term goal is to get the clean as pristine as possible w/o sacrificing too much tone, even at the expense of shortchanging the gain channel

Long term is to get that gain channel better than what it is

The gain channel is still buzzy, and not round enough even @ low gain levels

The 5751's still were a bit to gainy, and the AT7's did better, but not by too much

Let me re-iterate: I like the clean tone out of this amp, and it is a keeper

I am not a "one amp does it all" guy, and don't mind A/B - ing

However, gut shots will be posted soon

I'll tell ya when my friend went w/all sozo's in his BF super, there were significant improvements beyond any psychological mind-warp deal.

There is definitely something to that - I may not know it intellectually, b ut I sure hear it

Thanks again

[Geoff J]

Okay, so I found this gut shot on the web, for right now - so any cursory insights are appreciated

However, i will be taking more detailed close ups of mine

[IMG:320:127]http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n237/yZe1/TM.jpg[/img]

[Structo]

That picture is too small to tell anything about it.