2nd Generation 50W ODS Period correct Layout

[Max]

[quote="talbany")
When the 2nd generation was manufactured
- pre production ODS with the 3 step OD switch (1968 - 1972)
- 1st generation (1972 - 1975)
- 2nd generation (1975 - 1978)
- 3rd generation (1978 - 1979)
- transition generation (1979 - 1981)


Great work Tony!

And I also agree with Max and some of you others.

But personally I do not think that we can generally pinpoint HAD's work this specifically.

Like I know of two ODS amps in the 02x's that were ordered in 1979 and delivered in late 1980.

And I know of two ODS amps in the 05x's that were ordered, one in 1979
and the other in 1980. Both delivered in 1981!

So I guess there are a lot of exceptions here, or?

Hi ampcrack,

Why do you think that these three transition generation "classic" amps you tell to know from hearsay are exceptions? The production/delivery year dates you report (1980/81) match exactly with those posted by Tony (talbany) for the transition generation "classic" ODS amps (1979 -1981)?

And why do you think that the fact that some of the chassis of these transition generation "classic" ODS amps look rather similar to the 2nd and 3rd generation chassis and some of them even have series numbers from the 2nd and 3rd generation series number range is surprising?

Just this is the reason why I call them transition generation "classic" ODS:
Their circuits and features are already very similar to the 4th generation "classic" ODS amps. But some of their chassis still look rather similar to a 2nd or 3rd generation chassis, or even have a series # from the 2nd or 3rd generation range.

And BTW: Of course there are always exception from all generalisations. And my personal opinion concerning exceptions in regard to the ODS "generations" I have posted here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 327#137327 :

But of course there will be exceptions - just as you will find some few 50ies Les Paul Customs with only two PAFs or with some kind of Switchmaster wiring etc.

In some kind of metaphor you could perhaps compare this with a Gaussian bell curve: Most amps from the same generation have very similar specs, some will have specs that are a bit different from the more usual ones and very few will have specs that are very different or even more similar to the usual specs of the previous or the next generation.

IMO this is indeed very similar to the usual generalisations which are commonly used in regard to different generations of Les Pauls and Stratocasters as an example. And IMO it makes sense to use generalisations in communication like "Goldtop with PAFs" even though you will find some differences between Les Pauls from this "generation" (black parts, dark backs, etc.). IMO generalisations like "3rd generation 'pre-classic' ODS" are meaningful semantic means of communication - no more, no less.

But if someone should prefer to call what I call the "3rd generation 'pre-classic' ODS amps":

"The ODS amps with a silver chassis and toggle EQ and manual/pedal switches that have been originally built with an accent switch on their front panels and without a presence and a ratio control on their front or back panels"

this would IMO be just an other possibility to make clear what kind of ODS someone is precisely talking about .

But personally I prefer to save some time and breath and to just say and write "3rd generation 'pre-classic' ODS". This is just more to my personal taste than some other obvious possibilities to "name" this kind of ODS amps whose layout and front panel look (3rd generation "export" combo pic) have been posted in the OP of this thread.

Have a great weekend,

Max

[ampcrack]

Hi ampcrack,

Why do you think that these three transition generation "classic" amps you tell to know from hearsay are exceptions? The production/delivery year dates you report (1980/81) match exactly with those posted by Tony (talbany) for the transition generation "classic" ODS amps (1979 -1981)?

And why do you think that the fact that some of the chassis of these transition generation "classic" ODS amps look rather similar to the 2nd and 3rd generation chassis and some of them even have series numbers from the 2nd and 3rd generation series number range is surprising?


Hi Max,

1.
With exceptions I ment just what I wrote.
These guys ordered their amps from HAD, during a period
where he was already making the next generation amps,
or the blackface ones.

2.
You must know that HAD has so-called "leftover" amps in his
store/shed. For whatever reason, like he got pissed off with the
customer and paid him the money back. And he did this very
often...

3.
And sometimes, as we all know, HAD took his time (a very long time)
to tweek a certain amp for a player.

4.
If these amps have the same Dumble electronics in them as
other closely related amps...I really don't know.
Sadly, I don't have any shematics of them.

Best,

John

[ampcrack]

Ampcrack

Thanks for the reply..
Do you by chance know what generation these 02X or 05X amps are and could share it with us?

Tony

Hi Tony,

sorry, but I don't have any schematics of them.

Best,

John

[Max]

Hi Max,

1.
With exceptions I ment just what I wrote.
These guys ordered their amps from HAD, during a period
where he was already making the next generation amps,
or the blackface ones.

Hi John,

as you've written in your previous post, these three amps, which as far as you've been told have been delivered in 1980/81, have been ordered in 1979. And AFAIK Alexander in 1979 finished the last 3rd generation "pre-classic" amps and started to build the first transition generation "classic" amps with a ratio control, the "classic" tone stack, the new "trigger" trim pot OD entrance, snubbers etc. - a completely new preamp design.

And because of this you find on some of the preamp boards of some of these transition generation "classic" amps two "copyright signs" (a C in a circle) - one for '72 for the general ODS preamp circuit; and one for '79 for the new "classic" preamp circuit (labelled "RC" for "ratio control").

So it is IMO no surprise and no real "exception" that these customers got transition generation "classic" amps in 1980/81 because "classic" is the usual circuit for an '80/'81 ODS. And some of the very early transition generation amps that Alexander started to build in '79 and '80 did of course still have silver chassis with the same overall look as the 2nd or 3rd generation "pre-classic" amps - but already with the new "classic" ("RC") preamp circuit. Exactly because of this I call them transition generation "classic" ODS.

2.
You must know that HAD has so-called "leftover" amps in his
store/shed.

This is indeed one of the reasons why you find some series numbers stamped on ODS amps whose circuits are out of the usual range for these series numbers. But AFAIK he never delivered such amps without the newest updates.

In the contrary: AFAIK Alexander Dumble was always very eager to convince his customers to update their amps to the newest and most current specs. In updating these "leftover" chassis or already completed amps he did AFAIK sometimes even go so far as to strip them down to the chassis and build them new from scratch. Sometimes he changed only the preamp board, sometimes only some parts - depending on the kind of update needed to bring them to the then newest specs.

And AFAIK sometimes it happened that if players with a close relationship to him urgently wanted a quick update for their amps, he simply did swap the amps. The player then got one of these updated "leftovers" and Alexander took back the "old" amp of the player and then updated it to the newest specs. Sometimes the amps then were swapped again after the update of the "old " amp but sometimes not. So a skyline HRM circuit in an amp with series #10X as an example can have two reasons: Its owner ordered this update or this is one of these leftovers or trade-ins that he updated in his shop to the newest specs before its delivery to a new owner in, say 1996 as an example.

So these '80/'81 transition generation "classic" amps you report of with a 2nd generation series number are not that exceptional as you may perhaps think. I would not be that surprised, if at some time in the future I should find a complete 1988 skyline circuit in a 2nd generation chassis with series number #03X.

But what IMO would be really a very unusual "exception" is an ODS with a 2nd generation "pre-classic" circuit that has been ordered in '79 and delivered in '81. But not an ODS with a "classic" circuit but in a 2nd generation chassis with a 2nd generation series #. This in the contrary would be rather usual for these very inconsistent transition generation "classic" ODS amps from the years '79 to '81 (the last delivered in '82 AFAIK) Do you understand the difference?

Have a nice weekend,

Max

[ampcrack]

Hi Max,

yes I understand you and thanks for your long and interesting point of view.

By the way I was talking about 4 (four different amps, not 3.)

Basically I just thought I'd mention this, nothing else behind it.

I spoke to one of the guys yesterday. His is in the 050's..
He told me that his amp was delivered in October 1981.
It's a silver face and of course without ratio. He has been offered to update his amp, but he's happy the way it is.

Have a nice week

[Max]

Hi Max,

yes I understand you and thanks for your long and interesting point of view.

By the way I was talking about 4 (four different amps, not 3.)

Basically I just thought I'd mention this, nothing else behind it.

I spoke to one of the guys yesterday. His is in the 050's..
He told me that his amp was delivered in October 1981.
It's a silver face and of course without ratio. He has been offered to update his amp, but he's happy the way it is.

Have a nice week

Hi ampcrack,

to avoid or clarify a possible misunderstanding:

I assumed until now that you talked about amps that have been individually ordered by musicians in the US, have been individually built for these musicians by Alexander Dumble and then have been individually picked up by these musicians in Alexander's shop or have been individually sent by him to these musicians. Did I understand this right or did you perhaps talk about four amps of the Applied Acoustics and Spiecker & Pulch batch, which have been exported to Europe?

Cheers,

Max

[Structo]

Now we just need to organize all the trivia about each amp, put it with the proper layout and schematic and make some sticky threads in the files section.
Sort of like the Trainwreck guys have had for years.

[ampcrack]

Hi ampcrack,

to avoid or clarify a possible misunderstanding:

I assumed until now that you talked about amps that have been individually ordered by musicians in the US, have been individually built for these musicians by Alexander Dumble and then have been individually picked up by these musicians in Alexander's shop or have been individually sent by him to these musicians. Did I understand this right or did you perhaps talk about four amps of the Applied Acoustics and Spiecker & Pulch batch, which have been exported to Europe?

Cheers,

Max

Hello Max,

yes, these are Overdrive Specials, ordered by musicians in the States.

I've never had the chance to play one of these Overdrive Specials that were sent to Germany. I've heard and read that if they're untouched, original condition, or have been fixed with the help from HAD then they are just as good as the other ones, what do you think? Do you have one of them?

I know that a couple of them were resold to players in the States.
Henry Kaiser has one, there's one in Florida and another in Georgia.

Do you know anything about two Overdrive Specials in the 110's or 120's
that were ordered by studio musicians in France and Luxembourg?

To end a long story, again, I just wanted to mention these 4 amps. I thought it would be interesting to know.

Have a nice week and take care.

Best,

John

[Max]

these are Overdrive Specials, ordered by musicians in the States.

Hi John,

thanks for the info. As you know one of these musicians, could you perhaps ask him some questions about his amp and report his answers:
- does he remember when in '79 he ordered this amp and when in 80/81 he got it then?
- is it a 2nd generation ODS like this one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 751#136751 ?
- or a 3rd generation ODS like the one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 928#136928 ?

All the best,

Max

[ampcrack]

Hi John,

thanks for the info. As you know one of these musicians, could you perhaps ask him some questions about his amp and report his answers:
- does he remember when in '79 he ordered this amp and when in 80/81 he got it then?
- is it a 2nd generation ODS like this one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 751#136751 ?
- or a 3rd generation ODS like the one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 928#136928 ?

All the best,

Max[/quote]


Hello Max,

thank you for your mail.

Sorry, I was away for a couple of days.

As I wrote to you in a previous mail, he received his amp in October 1981.

If it matches to the 2nd or 3rd Generation, I really don't know.
All of these guys don't want anybody to take pictures of the inside.
Which I do understand, and I hope you do as well.

Best,

John

[Max]

All of these guys don't want anybody to take pictures of the inside.
Which I do understand, and I hope you do as well.

Best,

John

Hi John,

to discern a 2nd from a 3rd generation ODS you don't need pictures of the inside: 2nd generation ODS amps have sliding EQ and manual/pedal switches and 3rd generation ODS amps have small toggle EQ and manual pedal switches. So do they have sliding or toggle switches?

Have a nice day,

Max

[ampcrack]

Hello Max,

the amp that was delivered in Oct. 1981 has slide switches.
Later it had a presence knob installed on the back panel, and
the (old) accent slide switch was changed to a type of boost...

First I thought you wanted schematics, as you sent me these Links:

- is it a 2nd generation ODS like this one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 751#136751 ?
- or a 3rd generation ODS like the one here http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 928#136928 ?

Probably just a language barrier..

Anyway all the best,

John

[Max]

Hello Max,
the amp that was delivered in Oct. 1981 has slide switches.
Later it had a presence knob installed on the back panel, and
the (old) accent slide switch was changed to a type of boost...

Hi ampcrack,

thanks for the info. So this amp has at least the "look" of a 2nd generation amp.

Do you know if it has been delivered in 1981 with a "pre-classic" tone stack, the "funky OD entrance" and no snubbers; or with a "classic" tone stack, the "trigger" trim pot OD entrance and snubbers?

And do you know in what year the presence pot on the back and this strange "boost switch" ("strange": I've never heard of something like this before in an original Dumble ODS) in the usual position of the accent switch have been added and if this has been done by Alexander himself or by some other tech?

Cheers,

Max

[Max]

2nd generation "pre-classic" Dumble ODS 50W:

http://ampgarage.com/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 802#140802

Cheers,

Max